rec.autos.simulators

by **The Du** » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I wish Papy/Sierra would think about this. I'd love to have a '79 season. The
cars would be easier to handle than GPL, but you'd get to race against some of
the best. Gilles, Lauda, and all the rest. :) And just think, you could race
in a leisure suit. ;) Anyone have any good ideas for what you think a good
season would be to recreate?

-The Dude?
Check out The Dude's radio show on 90.9 FM Indianapolis, B91.

by **Daniel Shirle** » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Trust me, you will NEVER see it.

I would like to see an up to date openwheel CART/IRL/F1 sim from Papy...
I do think the GPL engine would provide a good starting place for a WoO sim
too <G>

>I wish Papy/Sierra would think about this. I'd love to have a '79 season.
The
>cars would be easier to handle than GPL, but you'd get to race against some
of
>the best. Gilles, Lauda, and all the rest. :) And just think, you could
race
>in a leisure suit. ;) Anyone have any good ideas for what you think a good
>season would be to recreate?

>-The Dude?
>Check out The Dude's radio show on 90.9 FM Indianapolis, B91.

by **Michael Barlo** » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> I wish Papy/Sierra would think about this. I'd love to have a '79 season. The
> cars would be easier to handle than GPL, but you'd get to race against some of
> the best. Gilles, Lauda, and all the rest. :) And just think, you could race
> in a leisure suit. ;) Anyone have any good ideas for what you think a good
> season would be to recreate?

My idea for the best year would be 1967. Just think... there wouldn't
be any wings to glue you to the ground, Tires wouldn't be a soft
compound and glue you to the ground, ect... it would take a "real"
driver to race one of those cars ;-)
--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/

Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
Holodyne Engineering
Mystic Music
(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

by **bean** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Will never happen. Not unless we buy 1000 copies each. But I think they'll still
want to sell more then 6,000 copies.

> I wish Papy/Sierra would think about this. I'd love to have a '79 season. The
> cars would be easier to handle than GPL, but you'd get to race against some of
> the best. Gilles, Lauda, and all the rest. :) And just think, you could race
> in a leisure suit. ;) Anyone have any good ideas for what you think a good
> season would be to recreate?

> -The Dude?
> Check out The Dude's radio show on 90.9 FM Indianapolis, B91.

by **Schlom** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Does anyone know what the estimated final sales total for GPL really was? I
know it couldnt have been great but it would be interresting to know.

Chris

by **Alison Hi** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I'd love to see the '71 or '72 season. Slicks and wings, and the
fabulous Lotus 72, but it would still have the old, magnificant versions
of the great tracks like Spa and the Nurburgring. And it could have the
Oesterrichring, Brands Hatch, Clermont-Ferrand, the Glen with "the
Boot", ...

I really believe this version would sell much better than the original,
in part because of the conceptual links with modern cars, and the visual
similarity. Wings, slicks. Pointy noses, advertising on the cars, etc.

Wouldn't the black and gold Lotus 72 make a gorgeous cover shot?

Besides, Pete Lyons says that the cars of this era were absolutely
spectacular to watch. With lots of power, big wings, light weight, and
*bias* ply tires, you could really see the driver at work. The absence
of ground effects and radial tires meant that the cars worked well at
high slip angles, and the relatively draggy bodywork and wings meant
that the cars punched a big hole in the air for other cars to draft in.
Close racing and spectacular driving were the norms.

Here's a snip from something Pete wrote in Autoweek in 1993:

"[In] that magic year...the formula itself showcased its drivers. Grand
Prix cars seemed to have stabilized at a level of unusual quality. In
1973 they were good racing instruments, powerful enough and difficult
enough to drive to present a visible challenge, closely matched enough
to create frequent close racing, generally reliable enough to allow that
close racing to continue for most of a race distance and inexpensive
enough to allow a great variety and number of teams to participate."

I've posted a larger excerpt on my Web site:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Go to the News page.

Even now, reading Lyons' description of Ronnie Peterson at the wheel of
the Lotus 72 in qualifying for the 1973 Argentine GP gives me chills.

Alas, it doesn't look too likely that Papyrus will be making another
open wheel sim any time soon. Mabye, if we all write them letters (in
hard copy), they'll reconsider. I don't think too many of the marketing
people and executives at Sierra/Havas read rec.autos.simulators, but
they are fairly likely to notice a large stack of paper from their
customers. A deluge of snailmail at the Sierra headquarters pleading
for GPL2 and/or a GPL-based CART sim just might have an impact.

Also, I believe the prevailing belief at Sierra is that a major reason
GPL didn't sell as well as expected was that it's "too hard". In the
mind of the casual observer, that translates to "realistic physics are
too hard".

In reality, as we all know, that conclusion is nonsense. GPL is "too
hard" because it was gutted of the essential lower layers of its planned
*** structure in order to meet deadlines.

Anyone can drive GPL's Basic Trainer. Nobody, even top professional
real time race drivers, can drive GPL's Grand Prix cars out of the box.

I know, because I've introduced GPL to many novices and to top
professional real time race drivers, including a former world champion,
who crashed the BRM GP car several times in three laps and gave up.
Novices, OTOH, - if I don't let them drive the GP cars - bomb around in
the Basic Trainer and have great fun.

With no way for the novice or casual user to race in the Trainers, with
nothing to keep the novice from jumping into the impossibly difficult
Grand Prix cars, and with that novice faced with trying to beat
realistically fast representations of some of the best drivers in
history, GPL was doomed from the start to get the reputation of being
"too hard".

The absence of an essential *** structure is a flaw that is easily
rectified. The Basic Trainers are fun and easy to drive, and the
Advanced Trainers are an absolute blast, and make for spectacular
racing. We have discovered that they both work quite well with the AI
files for the GP cars.

Add the e***ment of the early era of wings and slicks, the visual
impact of the Lotus 72 on the cover, GPL's already stunning physics
engine, the superb multiplayer implementation in GPL 1.2, the coming
explosion of Internet *** (see Sega Dreamcast and Sony Playstation 2
promo materials) and you and I know damn well that Papyrus would have a
winner.

What we need is for Sierra and Havas to wake up to this potential.

Addresses below.

Alison

United States

Sierra Direct
7100 W. Center Rd
STE 301
Omaha, NE 68106

United Kingdom

Havas Interactive
2 Beacontree Plaza,
Gillette Way,
Reading, Berkshire
RG2 0BS United Kingdom

France

Havas Interactive
Parc Tertiaire de Meudon
Immeuble "Le Newton"
25 rue Jeanne Braconnier
92366 Meudon La Fort Cedex
France

Germany

Havas Interactive
Robert-Bosh-Str. 32
D-63303 Dreieich
Germany

Alison

Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Michael Horto** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Well said Alison

--
Thanks
Michael Horton
Webmaster of
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Home of the F2/F3 Hotlaps

and

http://www.racesimcentral.net/
HTML for Begineers

> >Anyone have any good ideas for what you think a good
> >season would be to recreate?

> I'd love to see the '71 or '72 season. Slicks and wings, and the
> fabulous Lotus 72, but it would still have the old, magnificant versions
> of the great tracks like Spa and the Nurburgring. And it could have the
> Oesterrichring, Brands Hatch, Clermont-Ferrand, the Glen with "the
> Boot", ...

> I really believe this version would sell much better than the original,
> in part because of the conceptual links with modern cars, and the visual
> similarity. Wings, slicks. Pointy noses, advertising on the cars, etc.

> Wouldn't the black and gold Lotus 72 make a gorgeous cover shot?

> Besides, Pete Lyons says that the cars of this era were absolutely
> spectacular to watch. With lots of power, big wings, light weight, and
> *bias* ply tires, you could really see the driver at work. The absence
> of ground effects and radial tires meant that the cars worked well at
> high slip angles, and the relatively draggy bodywork and wings meant
> that the cars punched a big hole in the air for other cars to draft in.
> Close racing and spectacular driving were the norms.

> Here's a snip from something Pete wrote in Autoweek in 1993:

> "[In] that magic year...the formula itself showcased its drivers. Grand
> Prix cars seemed to have stabilized at a level of unusual quality. In
> 1973 they were good racing instruments, powerful enough and difficult
> enough to drive to present a visible challenge, closely matched enough
> to create frequent close racing, generally reliable enough to allow that
> close racing to continue for most of a race distance and inexpensive
> enough to allow a great variety and number of teams to participate."

> I've posted a larger excerpt on my Web site:

> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> Go to the News page.

> Even now, reading Lyons' description of Ronnie Peterson at the wheel of
> the Lotus 72 in qualifying for the 1973 Argentine GP gives me chills.

> Alas, it doesn't look too likely that Papyrus will be making another
> open wheel sim any time soon. Mabye, if we all write them letters (in
> hard copy), they'll reconsider. I don't think too many of the marketing
> people and executives at Sierra/Havas read rec.autos.simulators, but
> they are fairly likely to notice a large stack of paper from their
> customers. A deluge of snailmail at the Sierra headquarters pleading
> for GPL2 and/or a GPL-based CART sim just might have an impact.

> Also, I believe the prevailing belief at Sierra is that a major reason
> GPL didn't sell as well as expected was that it's "too hard". In the
> mind of the casual observer, that translates to "realistic physics are
> too hard".

> In reality, as we all know, that conclusion is nonsense. GPL is "too
> hard" because it was gutted of the essential lower layers of its planned
> *** structure in order to meet deadlines.

> Anyone can drive GPL's Basic Trainer. Nobody, even top professional
> real time race drivers, can drive GPL's Grand Prix cars out of the box.

> I know, because I've introduced GPL to many novices and to top
> professional real time race drivers, including a former world champion,
> who crashed the BRM GP car several times in three laps and gave up.
> Novices, OTOH, - if I don't let them drive the GP cars - bomb around in
> the Basic Trainer and have great fun.

> With no way for the novice or casual user to race in the Trainers, with
> nothing to keep the novice from jumping into the impossibly difficult
> Grand Prix cars, and with that novice faced with trying to beat
> realistically fast representations of some of the best drivers in
> history, GPL was doomed from the start to get the reputation of being
> "too hard".

> The absence of an essential *** structure is a flaw that is easily
> rectified. The Basic Trainers are fun and easy to drive, and the
> Advanced Trainers are an absolute blast, and make for spectacular
> racing. We have discovered that they both work quite well with the AI
> files for the GP cars.

> Add the e***ment of the early era of wings and slicks, the visual
> impact of the Lotus 72 on the cover, GPL's already stunning physics
> engine, the superb multiplayer implementation in GPL 1.2, the coming
> explosion of Internet *** (see Sega Dreamcast and Sony Playstation 2
> promo materials) and you and I know damn well that Papyrus would have a
> winner.

> What we need is for Sierra and Havas to wake up to this potential.

> Addresses below.

> Alison

> United States

> Sierra Direct
> 7100 W. Center Rd
> STE 301
> Omaha, NE 68106

> United Kingdom

> Havas Interactive
> 2 Beacontree Plaza,
> Gillette Way,
> Reading, Berkshire
> RG2 0BS United Kingdom

> France

> Havas Interactive
> Parc Tertiaire de Meudon
> Immeuble "Le Newton"
> 25 rue Jeanne Braconnier
> 92366 Meudon La Fort Cedex
> France

> Germany

> Havas Interactive
> Robert-Bosh-Str. 32
> D-63303 Dreieich
> Germany

> Alison

> Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Olav K. Malm** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

[Some very good reflections on the 1972-73 era]

Interesting post. Could you tell us a little more about the planned ***
structure that was scrapped ? I know that there was promised a career mode
in the early promotions long before the release, but what more ?

I think that the realistic physics made the sim easier, not easier to control,
but easier to understand why the car didn't want to stay on the track. In a
lot of games (even GP2 i think) the car just fly off the track and you can't
really figure out why.

--
Olav K. Malmin
remove spam when replying

by **Michael** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I think that's one of the problems for the mass market - everybody likes
to think of themselves as a superhuman when they play computer games.
Luke Skywalker defeating the Deathstar is just one example - in racing
games they want to be able to race with the best.

So you can't call them Trainers - people won't try them. I think the only
way to do it is to have difficulty settings that use neutral terms so
people will not feel bad selecting them.

I personally love GPL - and I have never tried either of the trainer cars
and I turned off all help before playing. Admittedly I spent a long time
spinning to start with, but now I can win races against the AI at most
tracks.

Unfortunately I don't think this newsgroup represents the mass market.
Just less than a thousand *** committed gamers. And the GPLers are a
subset of that!

- Michael

by **Brian Whitake** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

>So you can't call them Trainers - people won't try them. I think the only
>way to do it is to have difficulty settings that use neutral terms so
>people will not feel bad selecting them.

A bit like Doom;

Instead of 'Easy, Medium and Difficult' levels, each difficulty
setting had its own title. I can't remember what they were called, but
I remember thinking it was pretty smart, and a clever way to get
people to play both beginner and professional difficulty settings.

Best regards,

Brian Whitaker - ICQ, 51274367

by **George R Barto** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Alison;

You hit the nail squarely on the head......or should I say you "put the
Lotus squarely on the apex". As soon as I can find where to buy stamps ;-) I
am going to write Papyrus a letter.

And a big thank you for all your support of GPL, I don't believe it would be
the online experience it is without all the effort you and a few other
dedicated people have put into it.

Thanks Again,
G_Barton