rec.autos.simulators

by **Matthias Flat** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

As "tracks" like Targa Florio and especially Mille Miglia are
concerned, dreaming is not enough. A 1000 mile long track in a
computer sim? Even if somebody would make that fantastic track, who
would drive this hot lapper's nightmare?
Even Moss & Jenkinson in the 300 SLR needed over 10 hours to do the
giant tour of Italy.

--
Matthias Flatt

by **Graeme Nas** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Thanks for the opinion Matt! I've been thinking about ordering this
video for quite a while to complement some of my other 1970's tapes.
I'll order it tonight :-)

--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

There was a recent show on Speedvision in the "Legends of Motorsport" series
called "The Shape of Things to Come" that detailed the early days of
aerodynamic development in F1. In it there was a clip from the Nurburgring
(in '73, in think), taken from a wing-mounted camera looking over the
driver's shoulder while Jackie Stewart narrated. Downright terrifying to
watch, as Stewart admitted. He said something along the lines that in 7
minutes(!) at the 'Ring, you experienced more in the way of fear,
apprehension, and hatred towards all things mechanical than most people do
in a lifetime. He said if he'd walked around the track and seen all the
dangerous bits up close, he'd probably never have gotten in a car there
again. Of course he won that year. Great stuff!

Cheers,

Steve B.

> > >Anyone have any good ideas for what you think a good
> > >season would be to recreate?

> > I'd love to see the '71 or '72 season. Slicks and wings, and the
> > fabulous Lotus 72, but it would still have the old, magnificant versions
> > of the great tracks like Spa and the Nurburgring. And it could have the
> > Oesterrichring, Brands Hatch, Clermont-Ferrand, the Glen with "the
> > Boot", ...

> <snip>
> Alison,
> Go to www.Duke.com and look for the "To finish first, first you have to
> finish" film. It's based in the lotus camp of 71-72, and it's absolutely
> wonderful. Even has Jimmy Hendrix' "Foxy Lady" as background on the
> dreadfully wet Monaco GP that Beltoise won in the BRM/ISO-Marlboro!
> Emmo, Ronnie, Jackie, Cevert...what a time that was!

> :-)
> Matt

> --
> ----------------------
> The GPL Preservation Society
> http://www.gpl.netti.nu
> http://KOTR.de/gpl

> **GPLEA Member**

by **Bj.O.r** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> Even now, reading Lyons' description of Ronnie Peterson at the wheel of
> the Lotus 72 in qualifying for the 1973 Argentine GP gives me chills.

Ronnie....

In the early 70'ies, Ronnie was invited to parcipitate in a touring car
(wasn't it called saloons back then?) race at Ring Knutstorp in Sweden, due
to unknown reason, he was delayed so he got into the (to him) unknown car
with minutes left of the qualifying session. It had started to rain so he
quickly got onto the track and put the car on pole...

Ronnie had never driven that car before, let alone a right hand drive
car.... (why they used rhd, I don't know)

The story comes directly from the mechanic of the Bosse "Emma" Emanuelsson
team... (a Swede that raced BMW's with some success back then)

/Bj.O.rn, SDK #1225

by **Mark Seer** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I concur.
This is an excellent video.

Mark

by **Tracey A Mille** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I seriously doubt it. GPL didn't sell in the U.S. because Gran Prix
doesn't sell in the U.S. There are no "legends" of Gran Prix over here
other than Mario Andretti, and he became a legend at Indy not because
of what he did in '76.

Papy keeps making NASCAR sims because NASCAR sells. Both NASCAR '99 as
well as NASCAR 3 are in the top 20 for sales last week. It wouldn't
matter what physics engine they use in a NASCAR sim (as long as it has
one, unlike Revolution) or how hard it is, American kids that buy
software want to race against Jeff Gordon, not Jim Clark.

If you really want to see another open wheel sim, give up on the GP
idea and start pushing for a CART sim, or maybe a Legends of the
Brickyard product. The idea of racing against A.J Foyt or Mario
Andretti would be a much easier sell than any F1 based product.

Alison Hine wrote
original,

by **Bob Curti** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> I seriously doubt it. GPL didn't sell in the U.S. because Gran Prix
> doesn't sell in the U.S. There are no "legends" of Gran Prix over here
> other than Mario Andretti, and he became a legend at Indy not because
> of what he did in '76.

I respectfully disagree that there are no GP legends here in the US.
While the younger generation certainly doesn't know Jim Clark from***
Clark, we codgers (and there are a lot of us) remember him and the rest of
those brass-balled gentlemen very well. Sure, aside from guys like me
who've never grown up, my compatriots don't buy too many racing sims, at
least compared to the youngsters. I suppose that in itself would cause
you to discount us as having any importance. In market terms, you're
right, but in reality you're very wrong.

--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green,
baggy skin"

by **Tracey A Mille** » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00

You're right of course, there are plenty of Americans that have
followed Formula One for years, but as you clarified I'm referring to
the younger audience that buys software.

I still believe that GPL diehards would be better served in pushing
Sierra for a CART sim, then one of these "Sim Project" genius's will
figure out a way to make a 1972 GP car set for it and convert the GPL
tracks.

Bob Curtin wrote

by **ymenar** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

And this is where the *** industry fails in majority. It cannot think of
creating a software for a specific market. It has to appeal to the mass
market or else it is not a good title from a business POV. It is like if
all music in the industry was pop-music. And anything else NOT pop is
non-profitable, which is false. Of course a *** software is different
from a music recording, but somehow they are very similar.

I would not mind a more "rustic" software by Papyrus, with less eye-candy,
less polishing that would appeal to US, the racing simulation fans with the
GPL game engine. It is possible from a business POV, *** can be create
to appeal to a specific market. GPL was one. And it sold pretty well.
Sales reports show 40,000 copies sold ? Wow that's pretty good, it shows
that the *** market for *** racing simulations is not that bad.
Sure it is not multi-million users, but that's normal, it's not a "pop"
game.

Nascar 1
Nascar 1 Expansion pack
Nascar 2
Nascar 2 BGN track pack
Nascar Racing 99
Craftmans series racing
Nascar Racing 3
Nascar Legends
Nascar Racing 4
Some N3 add-on/stand-alone title for Truck/tracks (possible)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Which _really_ makes one wish that you Yanks were (as a group) a bit more
selective in your motor-racing pleasures!

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by **M Connoll** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> >Tracks, such as Sebring, Daytona (If they could see fit to loosen
the knot in their
> >shorts) Nassau, Targa Florio, Mille Miglia, LeMans and Goodwood
would make for some
> >fun racing IMHO.

> >Well, I can dream, can't I?

Allow me to delurk and make a (probably) dumb contribution. Why not
revise the game to allow third parties add tracks and cars - a la GP2?

I am painfully aware that I'm probably just the latest in a long line
of newbies to suggest this, but surely it is within their compass to
re-engineer the current game to allow this and so give the title a much
longer shelf-life. It would also sidestep any licensing issues with
FOCA.

I know the physics engine is complex, and that the cars and tracks are
consequently harder to "build". But wouldn't this have a greater
potential return on investment than a GPL2? There isn't much wrong
with GPL that a range of tracks and cars wouldn't fix IMHO.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> Which _really_ makes one wish that you Yanks were (as a group) a bit more
> selective in your motor-racing pleasures!

Sure we can be selective. Comming up are the SCCA Runnoff's at Mid
Ohio. 700 cars, about a million classes. Just imagine about 40 or 50
Neons in a gaggle flocking around the famed Mid Ohio.
Or Pike's Peak Hillclimb. 10 minutes of racing to heaven.
Or One Lap Around America.(learn the fine art of Cooking 4 course meals
on your engine block and exhaust headers)
dave henrie

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Dave...I said "as a group"........meaning as a nation. By this I was trying
to say that if only you people embraced the same motor-sport tastes as the
majority of those enthusiasts world-wide then we would have
open-wheeler/sports car heaven in sim-land!

> > Which _really_ makes one wish that you Yanks were (as a group) a bit
more
> > selective in your motor-racing pleasures!

> Sure we can be selective. Comming up are the SCCA Runnoff's at Mid
> Ohio. 700 cars, about a million classes. Just imagine about 40 or 50
> Neons in a gaggle flocking around the famed Mid Ohio.
> Or Pike's Peak Hillclimb. 10 minutes of racing to heaven.
> Or One Lap Around America.(learn the fine art of Cooking 4 course meals
> on your engine block and exhaust headers)
> dave henrie

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by **Alison Hi** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

>[Some very good reflections on the 1972-73 era]

>> Also, I believe the prevailing belief at Sierra is that a major reason
>> GPL didn't sell as well as expected was that it's "too hard". In the
>> mind of the casual observer, that translates to "realistic physics are
>> too hard".

>> In reality, as we all know, that conclusion is nonsense. GPL is "too
>> hard" because it was gutted of the essential lower layers of its planned
>> *** structure in order to meet deadlines.

>Interesting post. Could you tell us a little more about the planned ***
>structure that was scrapped ? I know that there was promised a career mode
>in the early promotions long before the release, but what more ?

I believe that originally, the plan was to allow the user to race
against the AI in both the Basic Trainers and the Advanced Trainers.

In addition, I believe the user would have been restricted to the Basic
Trainer until demonstrating a certain level of competence. After moving
up to the Advanced Trainer, again a certain level of competence would
have been needed before the user could move up to the GP cars.

There was also a debate about a feature which would have allowed the
user to control the speeds of the AI cars. This was known as the "AI
slider".

During the beta period, I was not in favor of the restriction of
inexperienced drivers to the less powerful classes, but now I believe I
was wrong. It seems clear to me now that this is an essential feature
in any realistic simulation which features slow and medium speed corners
and very powerful cars. The smashing success of Gran Turismo would seem
to confirm this belief.

I was not pleased with the decision to abandon the ability to race with
the Trainers, but I admit that I lacked the vision to fully comprehend
the impact of its omission. Now I wish I had argued much more
forcefully for this feature to be retained.

I was strongly in favor of the AI slider, and argued passionately for
it. I still feel its omission was a mistake.

I feel that the omission of thse features had a very significant impact
on GPL's sales.

Very good point!

Alison

Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Bob Curti** » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00

> It is possible from a business POV, *** can be create
> to appeal to a specific market. GPL was one. And it sold pretty well.
> Sales reports show 40,000 copies sold ? Wow that's pretty good, it shows
> that the *** market for *** racing simulations is not that bad.
> Sure it is not multi-million users, but that's normal, it's not a "pop"
> game.

And I'd be willing to bet that GPL will sell for years to come if Sierra is
bright enough to keep it on the shelves.
They ought to take a hint from one of the smallest niche markets in the
world: Ayn Rand fans. "Randroids" they're unflatteringly called. It's been
said that Ayn Rand's magnum opus, "Atlas Shrugged" has sold more copies than any
other (single issue) book in the last forty years except the Bible. GPL is so
far ahead of every other sim, I think it'd keep selling as long as it's
supported by Papy/Sierra.

--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy
skin"