rec.autos.simulators

Gerry

-------------------------------------------------------------

Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board
http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
mber=1 :
Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?

Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
prompt, I did mean to answer it!)

The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like a
totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
me by surprise.

I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal for
a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive downforce
introduced.

I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.

This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners earlier
"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5 metres
later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on opposite
lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your way
out of the run off area and back onto the track.

But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
cars.

Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant apexing
was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing that
the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers talk
about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken a
battering.

So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you could
say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.

Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.

The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1 car
(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
would spin you out of control.

This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working hard
around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't need
full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!

I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
me...phew that was close..." moments...

The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the brakes.
I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
losing control, in an F1 car.

If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an FF1600
(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and obviously,
without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going. If
you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit. But,
and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the straight.
This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
to!

In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change from
6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly in
a tyre wall pizza.

Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.

Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!

Russ Brooks

--------------------------------

Hi all.
To anyone who was influenced by my earlier post regarding this game or got
second thoughts about buying it based on my gripes, I would like to say that
I was wrong!

The game gets better every minute. Aside from the crashes and blue screens,
it is close to perfect.

I worked the setups to the point where I have a car that's catchable when
oversteering and it's awesome!

Apologies to everyone I had the debate with, you were right, and I jumped in
too soon.

In my defence, all the classic sims have that 'grow on you' factor and this
ones growing like a baby.

It's the variations in handling that really sealed it for me and it's this
area that in my view lifts the game above GP3 as a sim. (Never thought I'd
say that)
You could compare GP3 to a Flight Sim 2000 where the Concorde handles like
the Cessna, a bit of a cop out. This is what a sim is all about - exploring
the nuances of each car, learning it's foibles and strengths. It's what GPL
does and it adds almost infinte variety to the game.

For those who tried F1RC and tossed it away early, I suggest you give it
some time, it's ***y excellent.

--------------------

Ian Bell
GPLRank -16.8

Gonna learn The Ring and Silverstone soon

Rafael: I'll be posting them soon to http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Taking a little while because I'm working on about 4 different setups to
suit different cars for each track

Jure:

I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT! How's it going mate?

Scorpio:

Tough one this to describe but I'll preamble a bit. This SIM is very similar
to GPL in the manner in which it feeds back information regarding stepping
over the edge. In GPL, if the tyres aren't screaming you generally aren't
going fast enough. So when the rear gives way you see it through the visual
change in the angle of attack of the tub to the road and in the suspension
movements. You had the tyre screaching before it gave way, so it's not that.
Now, in F1RC, the tyres don't screach until you have passed the limit. The
screach could be a bit louder, and they seem not to squeel until they are
*** out precariously and almost uncatchable. So like GPL, the feedback I
take the cue from is the angle of the monocoque to the road. Unlike GPL,
this happens in an instant and you must react much more quickly. Also the
suspension arms don't move much.

Changing the setups helped a lot, I'll be posting them to Jure soon and in
the meantime I'll just post the Setups with my record laps (assuming I get
any more ) so they will be necessarily a little precarious.

Do this:

Take the Mclaren and stock setup at any track, a mid downforce track is
best. Now
1. Stiffen the front Springs and dampers (keeping the same rough ratio
between bump and rebound) and soften the rears marginally.
2: Take the rear anti roll bar to 50,000 or so, front to 94,000
2: Drop the rear rideheight 5 or so and the front 15
3: Take the front wings to 1 point less than the rears.
4: Take the Diff to centre
5: Set the front camber to -50 and the rear to +10
6: Lower the gear ratios 2 points each.
7: Lower the Packers/BumpStops 5 points each.

Now take it out on track, and power it out of the slow corners and you'll
hit the rev limiter earlier and the car won't spin as easily.

Check the telemetry that the rear has clearance and if it doesn't raise it.

OK, CRUX OF THE SOLUTION: The snap oversteer which is almost uncontrollable
is caused by some of the default setups riding the packers in the fast
turns. As soonas the car rides them it snaps into almost uncontrollable
oversteer. Very Realistic, a bit like turn 5 at Brazil in GP3 if you touch
the left curbing.
In the slow stuff, the oversteer is caused by 2 factors:
1: As above, the gear ratios can be tweaked to move the power band out of
the slow stuff, and/or you can change to another gear.
2: The stock setups have a very soft front end and a stiff rear (a recipe
for oversteer) The above seven points should help with this.

Finally, just to reiterate, this SIM is amazing, the Mclaren has better
handling in the fast stuff due to superior aerodynamics (Well, they do have
Newey in the team ) and the Ferrari has more mechanical grip which shows
itself in the slow stuff. You can brake a little later in the Mclaren. The
Ferrari needs a higher rideheight, etc etc, absolutely excellent.

Sorry to go on.

[ 28 March 2001: Message edited by: Will ]

--------------------

Ian Bell
GPLRank -16.8

Gonna learn The Ring and Silverstone soon.

--------------------------------

Hi all.
To anyone who was influenced by my earlier post regarding this game or got
second thoughts about buying it based on my gripes, I would like to say that
I was wrong!

The game gets better every minute. Aside from the crashes and blue screens,
it is close to perfect.

I worked the setups to the point where I have a car that's catchable when
oversteering and it's awesome!

Apologies to everyone I had the debate with, you were right, and I jumped in
too soon.

In my defence, all the classic sims have that 'grow on you' factor and this
ones growing like a baby.

It's the variations in handling that really sealed it for me and it's this
area that in my view lifts the game above GP3 as a sim. (Never thought I'd
say that)
You could compare GP3 to a Flight Sim 2000 where the Concorde handles like
the Cessna, a bit of a cop out. This is what a sim is all about - exploring
the nuances of each car, learning it's foibles and strengths. It's what GPL
does and it adds almost infinte variety to the game.

For those who tried F1RC and tossed it away early, I suggest you give it
some time, it's ***y excellent.

--------------------

Ian Bell
GPLRank -16.8

Gonna learn The Ring and Silverstone soon

Rafael: I'll be posting them soon to http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Taking a little while because I'm working on about 4 different setups to
suit different cars for each track

Jure:

I'VE SEEN THE LIGHT! How's it going mate?

Scorpio:

Tough one this to describe but I'll preamble a bit. This SIM is very similar
to GPL in the manner in which it feeds back information regarding stepping
over the edge. In GPL, if the tyres aren't screaming you generally aren't
going fast enough. So when the rear gives way you see it through the visual
change in the angle of attack of the tub to the road and in the suspension
movements. You had the tyre screaching before it gave way, so it's not that.
Now, in F1RC, the tyres don't screach until you have passed the limit. The
screach could be a bit louder, and they seem not to squeel until they are
*** out precariously and almost uncatchable. So like GPL, the feedback I
take the cue from is the angle of the monocoque to the road. Unlike GPL,
this happens in an instant and you must react much more quickly. Also the
suspension arms don't move much.

Changing the setups helped a lot, I'll be posting them to Jure soon and in
the meantime I'll just post the Setups with my record laps (assuming I get
any more ) so they will be necessarily a little precarious.

Do this:

Take the Mclaren and stock setup at any track, a mid downforce track is
best. Now
1. Stiffen the front Springs and dampers (keeping the same rough ratio
between bump and rebound) and soften the rears marginally.
2: Take the rear anti roll bar to 50,000 or so, front to 94,000
2: Drop the rear rideheight 5 or so and the front 15
3: Take the front wings to 1 point less than the rears.
4: Take the Diff to centre
5: Set the front camber to -50 and the rear to +10
6: Lower the gear ratios 2 points each.
7: Lower the Packers/BumpStops 5 points each.

Now take it out on track, and power it out of the slow corners and you'll
hit the rev limiter earlier and the car won't spin as easily.

Check the telemetry that the rear has clearance and if it doesn't raise it.

OK, CRUX OF THE SOLUTION: The snap oversteer which is almost uncontrollable
is caused by some of the default setups riding the packers in the fast
turns. As soonas the car rides them it snaps into almost uncontrollable
oversteer. Very Realistic, a bit like turn 5 at Brazil in GP3 if you touch
the left curbing.
In the slow stuff, the oversteer is caused by 2 factors:
1: As above, the gear ratios can be tweaked to move the power band out of
the slow stuff, and/or you can change to another gear.
2: The stock setups have a very soft front end and a stiff rear (a recipe
for oversteer) The above seven points should help with this.

Finally, just to reiterate, this SIM is amazing, the Mclaren has better
handling in the fast stuff due to superior aerodynamics (Well, they do have
Newey in the team ) and the Ferrari has more mechanical grip which shows
itself in the slow stuff. You can brake a little later in the Mclaren. The
Ferrari needs a higher rideheight, etc etc, absolutely excellent.

Sorry to go on.

[ 28 March 2001: Message edited by: Will ]

--------------------

Ian Bell
GPLRank -16.8

Gonna learn The Ring and Silverstone soon.

A "VROC" patch for F1RC won't solve the multiplayer problems (major
warping with more than 4 players) I'm affraid. But I hope someone can
prove me wrong..

Andre

--
Ian P
<email invalid due to spam>

It's been already 3 titles and they yet have been able to build any kind of
serious multiplayer, especially with the whole fiasco of the Game Service
(and I know much about that).

Still not enough for me in 2001.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

  I think you made MY point.  :)  Even tho the racing with gpl was
limited...the
core ability of the sim to handle many drivers was already there.  With or
without
Vroc, you could...if you could find 19 drivers...run a full field.  Can ANY
modern
F1 sim support even HALF of a current field?  Yes GPl had limitations, but
they
were matchmaking limitations, not bandwidth or licensing or whatever seems
to
be holding back all these new titles.
  Back when we played Doom and Doom II we spent a lot of time and money
locally getting a bbs system that could run 4 players at once...after a 4
player deathmatch, head to head competitons just didn't cut it anymore.  And
the same goes with racing...
a few years ago...having 4 or 5 drivers in an F1 sim would have been
awesome.  But
I've driven 20 in GPL, 30 in N3 and 40 in N4 and 20+ in Nascar Heat....I'm
spoiled by these abilities and frankly amazed that sims based on the world's
most cutting edge racing are all handicapped by apparently archaic
multiplayer modes...
  Now I'll be the first to admit that often having that many users online at
once brings a
whole new set of problems, but the chances of racelong competion with other
drivers
is greatly increased as the field gets bigger.  with 4 drivers in F1cs we
are often just 4 drivers hotlapping, out of sight and out of touch with each
other.
dave henrie.

<snip>

Interesting Ian, what ff wheel do you have? I have a LWFF usb and ff
in f1rc is simply bad on my system, I don't feel what the car is
doing, or more important, what the car is -about- to do.
I also have a weird ff problem, and I heard other people having the
same problem: When driving behind an AI car, the ff goes all bad, hard
to describe what happens behind an AI car the ff effects don't make
any sense at all.

Andre