rec.autos.simulators

by **Todd Sorense** » Wed, 16 May 2001 10:52:03

How do you know JPM didn't try to run him off the road?

> In this context, I hardly find Montoya's remarks childish, especially
> since he accuses M.S. of the mind games the German is actually quite
> keen of playing (think of his downplaying of Coulthard's chances for the
> title). To see that indeed Montoya is not by nature acting childishly,
> just think about how he reacted to the incomprehensible Verstappen
> incident in Brazil. There he set an example for the whole sport to
> follow.

> And I'm saying this even though I am quite fond of the German and his
> style.

> -Gregor

> P.S.: Where did you find the Berger quote, I'd love to read the whole
> story.

> > Please, no more Montoya hype until he actually starts winning races. His
> > attitude is childish. This was the first race he even qualified higher
than
> > R. Schumacher (by one position), and his defense of the 1st place
position
> > was pretty poor. He was holding up five other cars, not just Schumacher,
and
> > then made a really dumb defensive maneuver when Schumacher tried to get
by.

> > "I'm racing, so I'm not going to let people by. If they can't get by me,
> > then they should get out," he said. "He thinks 'I'm Michael so you've
got to
> > let me by.'"

> > BMW Motorsport director Gerhard Berger, who has been very impressed by
the
> > Williams driver so far this season, allowed his disappointment to show.

> > "We all know well that Montoya doesn't really make room (for others).
You
> > only come out the winner from something like that if overall you remain
in
> > the lead," he said.

> > David G Fisher

by **Dave Henri** » Wed, 16 May 2001 10:54:37

> > But, uh, everything's perfectly all right now.
> > I'm fine
> > We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?

> >hmmm, whats Han Solo doing here?!!:o)

> steve

he forgot the 'blam blam' at the end..
dave henrie

by **Michael R Sisso** » Wed, 16 May 2001 11:16:53

Because he was not defending a championship points lead in the last race
of the season. The only reason an F1 driver would *purposely* crash his
car. Evar. Maybe. I am sure someone might correct me.

MRSisson

--
LOAD "GPL",8,1
RUN

by **Gerry Aitke** » Wed, 16 May 2001 16:13:32

> Why am I reading this in rec.autos.simulators?
> If you can't read a post from David G. Fisher without starting to
> trow insults, killfile him.

Is that an order?

by **Naim Gur** » Wed, 16 May 2001 16:51:42

Doug why do you think JP locked his brakes in the first place. If MS hadn't
made the move JP wouldn't have had to break so late.

Jay

> HE DID NOT RUN THE WORLD CHAMPION OFF THE ROAD - HE NEVER HIT HIM.

> Schimacher COULD - if he'd used his brain, slowed down, watched montoya
> slide of the road - THEN pull across onto the line and driven away in the
> lead

> Schumacher CLEARLY saw the problem - he swerved once, but didnt slow down.

> Montoya's mistake was to brake too late - and he took himself off as a
> results

> BUT

> Schumacher decided to join him

> Incidentally - what the hell sort of difference does it make if its the
> world champioon overtaking you or anyone else?

> Doug

> > > >Please, no more Montoya hype until he actually starts winning races.
> His
> > > >attitude is childish. This was the first race he even qualified
higher
> > than
> > > >R. Schumacher (by one position), and his defense of the 1st place
> > position
> > > >was pretty poor. He was holding up five other cars, not just
> Schumacher,
> > and
> > > >then made a really dumb defensive maneuver when Schumacher tried to
get
> > by.

> > > I don't think it was a dumb defensive maneuver. Juan had the inside
> > > line (ie track position). Schumacher didn't. He should have let him
> > > by. But he didn't have to. It's called racing.

> > While I didn't like the fact that he was holding up a line of
considerably
> > faster cars very early in the race, he technically wasn't doing anything
> > wrong. But when he drives in deep, locks up the tires, and then runs the
> > world champion off into the grass, then that is a dumb move. If it
weren't
> > for Schumi being best driver on the planet, Montoya probably would have
> > ended up taking out 5 other cars. I like Montoya, but that was totally
> > unnecessary. In fact, it was just plain stupid. That being said, it was
> > still one of the more entertaining F1 races in recent memory.

> > --
> > Gary

by **Gregor Vebl** » Wed, 16 May 2001 17:22:46

By watching the race, simply, especially from the overhead view. It was
clear that JPM braked late, and found himself in asever oversteer on
turn entry, which he corrected but was by then already running wide and
too fast to make the corner.

It may have looked as if he swerved back, but in fact he was very much
sideways and merely straightened it.

Besides, it would make absolutely no sense.

-Gregor

> How do you know JPM didn't try to run him off the road?

by **Gregor Vebl** » Wed, 16 May 2001 17:31:42

Hi David,

Thanks for the link!

Here's another part found in the same story:

-----

Schumacher said at first he would speak to the Colombian about the
incident but later moderated his stance.

"I think I should first watch the video," he said. "Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe when I watch the video I will see it slightly differently because
when you are in a racing car when it happens, although you are there,
you don't see all the factors.

"You don't see what kind of trouble he may have. First I will watch the
video and if I think I have to say something to him then I will do,"
said Schumacher.

-----

M.S. sure gained some points here. From his point of view, it may have
seemed that J.P.M. already turned in and afterwards turned into him,
while in fact that was a sever oversteer JPM experienced (easily seen in
the footage) and then straightened out. However, from M.S. point of
view, it could all look differently, especially since you cannot
concentrate solely on the driver you are racing.

I think this incident will quickly fade, as it truly was no more than a
racing incident, and I guess we should let it go as well. Both of them
showed some spectacular racing and utmost skill, too bad it almost ended
in the gravel.

-Gregor

> Atlas F1.

> In the story I quoted from, there were no other quotes by Berger.
> http://www.atlasf1.com/news/

> David G Fisher

by **Mart** » Wed, 16 May 2001 19:30:53

>He misjudged it, sure... but too easy for us to call it after having
>seen the incident (several times, in slow motion). Don't you think JPM
>knows now too?

>>Exactly, only you don't seem to be giving JPM the benefit of the doubt
>as to his plan being to maintain his challenge on the inside of MS.

I never said that. I don't know his intensions - however for some reason
he was unable to stick to that plan. Why? I have no idea...
over-ambitious, heat of the moment, simple misjudgement?

I'm sure that's what he planned - going deep and prevent MS from pasisng
him - however to do this you have be ahead of your opponent to make this
work. Otherwise you'll crash right into your opponent's rear. IMHO JPM's
battle was lost before the breaking point - at least for this corner (he
might have coutered on exiting the corner). But he didn't back off and
break early enough so he could make the corner - so the incident is his
fault. I have no problem with that - shit happens... however I am a
little disappointed with JPMs reaction towards this - no apology but hash
words instead - to me this strengthens the suspicion that there might
have been a little bit intention to "block at all costs" at that very
moment.

I guess they'll clear things up in a private talk (good) and hope JPM
will learn a thing or two from this thing... He'll become an even better
driver then.

You won't become champion if you don't pass a car that's running 1-2 secs
slower than you could.

Hehe... yes I found myself breaking earlier yesterday while on the inside
of Parabolica in a hot battle for P2 - lost the corner but finished 2nd
anyway because the leader dropped out....<g> (GPL)

Martin

by **ymenar** » Thu, 17 May 2001 00:26:22

> > But, uh, everything's perfectly all right now. I'm fine
> > We're all fine here, now, thank you. How are you?

> hmmm, whats Han Solo doing here?!!:o)

You don't need to see my identification.
<wave hand>
This is not the story you're looking for.
<wave hand>
He can go about his business.
<wave hand>

Move along...

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **ymenar** » Thu, 17 May 2001 00:27:52

> Why am I reading this in rec.autos.simulators?
> If you can't read a post from David G. Fisher without starting to
> trow insults, killfile him.
> That goes for the rest of the mob as well.

What's the fun in that?

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Gerry Aitke** » Thu, 17 May 2001 01:31:18

> > Why am I reading this in rec.autos.simulators?
> > If you can't read a post from David G. Fisher without starting to
> > trow insults, killfile him.
> > That goes for the rest of the mob as well.

> What's the fun in that?

Better do as the gentleman says Franky, else he may come and take our
pooters away :0/

by **D&S Schwab** » Thu, 17 May 2001 01:53:14

This is an aside... but I enjoyed reading your debate... neither one of you
got bent out of shape and kept it above board... well done. :-)

Now my .02... below

This is just something that popped into mind when you brought up the
unrepentant attitude and *talk*. Remember when Montoya was a CART rookie and
he put Andretti into the wall at Japan? He made a really aggressive move and
chopped the nose off Michael's car and they both hit. Well, Andretti was
fuming and claimed that Montoya just laughed at him. They had a talk but
Juan's attitude was similar.

But it appeared that Juan did learn from that escapade and went on to stay
clean and blindingly fast the next two seasons. In fact, that's one of the
things that I liked about Juan when in CART... he didn't resort to the
Zanardi-style bumping and banging.

I think that Berger (who said something to the effect that it was a nice
try, but Juan has to learn that there are times when it's best to "fight
another day" rather than go off trying to prevent the pass) talking to Juan
may help, as well as time to reflect, may see Juan learning and growing from
the manouever just like he did in Japan.

I for one certainly hope he learns from it.

--Dave

PS -- I think the biggest mistake he made was not in that he fought for
the corner, but that he did not realize how slick the off-line braking zone
was. Maybe in the future he will venture into off-line areas like that
during practice to see what kind of grip is there before trying it in the
heat of battle.

by **Graeme Nas** » Wed, 16 May 2001 02:50:50

Wow, someone just as annoying as DGF... ;)

--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 17 May 2001 04:10:45

The main problem with what Montoya did was that he knew he was holding up
five other cars (lapping 1-2 seconds slower) yet still decided to make a
very risky move to defend his position. Even though he was in first place at
the time of the incident, he was basically a backmarker who was creating a
conga line behind him. All forgivable if his childish comments afterward
didn't indicate he would do the same thing under the same circumstances.

David G Fisher

> Hi David,

> Thanks for the link!

> Here's another part found in the same story:

> -----

> Schumacher said at first he would speak to the Colombian about the
> incident but later moderated his stance.

> "I think I should first watch the video," he said. "Maybe I'm wrong.
> Maybe when I watch the video I will see it slightly differently because
> when you are in a racing car when it happens, although you are there,
> you don't see all the factors.

> "You don't see what kind of trouble he may have. First I will watch the
> video and if I think I have to say something to him then I will do,"
> said Schumacher.

> -----

> M.S. sure gained some points here. From his point of view, it may have
> seemed that J.P.M. already turned in and afterwards turned into him,
> while in fact that was a sever oversteer JPM experienced (easily seen in
> the footage) and then straightened out. However, from M.S. point of
> view, it could all look differently, especially since you cannot
> concentrate solely on the driver you are racing.

> I think this incident will quickly fade, as it truly was no more than a
> racing incident, and I guess we should let it go as well. Both of them
> showed some spectacular racing and utmost skill, too bad it almost ended
> in the gravel.

> -Gregor

> > Atlas F1.

> > In the story I quoted from, there were no other quotes by Berger.
> > http://www.atlasf1.com/news/

> > David G Fisher

by **Kevin Gavit** » Thu, 17 May 2001 04:20:30

> > David wasn't referring to any driver, because David never said that
quote.
> > Merry Gerry Dingle Berry has it all wrong.

> Name calling again. Ha!

> If you had half a brain, David, you wouldn't regurgitated other peoples
> rubbish without reading it through first. However because you do only
> have half a brain I am able to regurgitate your rubbish.

> LOL

> Gerry

> "F1 drivers come from a world wide talent pool of 6 billion people." --
> David G Fisher

I can't remember who it was, but I remember seeing an interview with a young
driver who had just gotten his first ride in Winston Cup.

Rather than the usual bullshit about how his talent has finally won out and
such all he could keep mentioning was how lucky he was to even have the
opportunity because of the extreme difficulty in even participating in
motorsports at all.

" Right now there's somebody out there driving a truck who would be the best
that ever was and we'll never know because he'll never even get a shot at
it."

A rather refreshing rookie point of view.

KFG

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