rec.autos.simulators

*
 Indian Online published the following Q & A with Michael Schumacher.

Formula 1 racing is considered by many to be the most thrilling sport in the
world. And few drivers have dominated it like Michael Schumacher. Ever since
he made his Formula 1 debut in 1991, the German has won a staggering 47
races-a figure exceeded only by Alain Prost. A three-time world champion (he
is the defending champion), the 32-year old Schumacher is considered by many
to be the greatest driver of his generation and is expected to rewrite most
Formula 1 records by the time he calls it a day. Currently with Ferrari,
Schumacher talks about the influence technology has had on his profession.

Q: Car technology has changed by leaps and bounds since you made your debut
in 1991. Many fear that the car has actually become more important than the
driver. Would you agree with this?

MS: I don't see it that way. An example: If you think back to 1991 and 1992,
in 1991 Riccardo Patrese and Nigel Mansell were nearly on the same level.
One year later, with more electronics, Mansell was outpacing Patrese.
Because he could go more to the limit of his car. I see it like this: You
are able to be more constantly at the limit [of the car] with it [better
electronics] and you don't have to take care of any power peaks of the
engine. It gives us more freedom to drive a bit faster. And the ability to
handle the car permanently on the limit is what makes a good driver.

Q: What role has technology played in your development as a driver?

MS: I am a car mechanic, this is my profession, so I have a kind of basic
experience with this [racing car technology]. As concerns the electronics, I
don't know all the details, I am not a specialist for sure. And I don't need
to be, as we have very good specialists in that field. But I know what
electronics can do for me, for my car. I think it is quite important to be
able to communicate properly with my engineers, to tell them more than just
a "strange feeling" I might have.

Q: The accidents in Formula I give the impression that it is a dangerous
sport. Would you agree? What are the safety precautions taken by drivers
during a race? Do you take any additional precautions?

MS: In a way it is a dangerous sport, sure. Namely, in the way that you
cannot eliminate all risks to 100 per cent. But we work hard to minimise
that percentage. We constantly try to improve safety on and off the tracks.
I am one of the directors of the GPDA, the Grand Prix Drivers Association,
which permanently is in touch with the FIA to give suggestions for
improvement about track layout, special corners, enough room in case of
accidents and so on. And we have been very successful in these improvements.
As for the drivers themselves, there are no special things beside fireproof
clothes, or, maybe, not to risk too much if you don't have to.

Q: We always see a crowd of technicians in the pits during a race. How
important is their role in the race?

MS: Without them none of us could race. It's as simple as this - Formula 1
is a team-sport, even if sometimes people tend to forget this. As a driver
you are very much dependant on your team. They have to control everything
and, if needed, change something.

Q: With the advance of technology, do you think that a day will come when
human drivers will be replaced by robots? Will there be a "virtual Michael
Schumacher" some day?

MS: You have that already in computer games. But in reality, no. No way! I
mean, now, with all the electronics you can use, there are people who say
monkeys could drive these cars. But believe me: they could not, at least not
as fast.

Q: Have you played any of the computer games built around Formula 1 racing?
How close do they come to the real thing?

MS: I have tried a few [computer racing games] and I haven't had any real
feedback out of them. They are much too far away from reality. I would even
deny you could learn anything from them that has to do with real driving.
Their steering is so staccato, and our cars are so sensitive to drive. Not
to speak of the g-forces, but also simply the steering-impulses we give. Or
the delay when we break. It is very different.

Q: Does being techno-savvy help a Formula 1 driver? How do you keep in touch
with technological developments in your field?

MS: Yes, as I said earlier, it helps a lot to know what is possible or what
is going on. You are constantly in contact with the specialists in our team
(Ferrari), so you automatically keep in touch with it.

Q: Right. Now for the wish list! If you had to make one technological change
in Formula 1 racing, what would it be?

MS: I would do something very simple: Reduce the aerodynamical grip,
increase the mechanical one. That would in my eyes increase the possibility
to overtake, and that is something we all would like to see.

Q: Finally, you are the current Formula 1 world champion and are considered
to be one of the greatest drivers of all time. So, tell us what does it take
to succeed in Formula 1?

MS: If I really could tell this, everyone could do so. What I want to say
with this is that there is no special secret with it, which you can simply
follow. I think you need a lot of talent, and a lot of discipline and work
ethics to make it. The second part you can influence, the first you cannot.

He's spot on without probably haven gone into detail on any real sim but as
far as not learning "real" driving.
I started with GP1 and am up to GPL and it though me pretty damn good when I
came into real racing. :-)

MS talks about staccato steering. Of course a F1 game will not even
remotely resemble the real thing when playing on a digital input
device, say for a playstation.

Are us sim fanatics the only ones using a wheel ? :)

Olav

<znipped>
| MS talks about staccato steering. Of course a F1 game will not even
| remotely resemble the real thing when playing on a digital input
| device, say for a playstation.
|
| Are us sim fanatics the only ones using a wheel ? :)
|
| Olav

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

<znipped>
| Maybe F1 is just not about *drivers* anymore.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.racesimcentral.net/).
Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 7/18/2001

Hey that's easy. Schumi. He's about to beat the WR for GP's won, he'll be a
3 times WC soon with two of these titles achieved in a car that wasn't the
fastest. Just remember how Benetton with Schumi usually finished on 1/2/3
and Ferrari on 5/6/7, and when the two teams switched drivers, their race
finishing positions were reversed although they were pretty much still the
same cars.

There can be no doubt - Schumi :-)

Achim

Sorry to burst your bubble and not meaning any disrespect to the soon to be
quadruple (or is it quintuple already?) F1 World Champion,but without
knowing which sims he's talking about, under which circumstance and how long
he's played them and which equipment he used to do so, his comments are next
to worthless.

He *is* an F1 driver, for crying out loud!! -Of course he won't relate to a
simulation on his first try. His body and mind are expecting G-loads in
response to his control actions and are not getting them, alienating him
from the experience. It takes time to train the brain into translating the
visual and audio cues into (mock) sensations about the simulated car.
Otherwise everyone would be able to drive simulated cars more or less
competently from the word go. Put any non-simracer in front of your PC and
it'll take him 15 minutes to complete a lap at Monza.
Couple of seasons ago RTL (German satellite TV station) used to invite ex-GP
drivers to watch the GP's along with a moderator and a studio audience,
momentarily commenting on events in the live coverage as the race unfolded.
At the end of the show they put them in a simulator (F1 chassis mock-up) and
had them drive a lap of Hockenheim (using MGPRS2, I think) adding the result
to a fastest lap list. Without exception, they embarassed themselves.
Why? -Because it takes a lot of practise to perceive the world of the
simulator as real, plain and simple. If ex-F1 drivers can't do it, what
chance has your cousin got?

The sensations derived from a racing simulation have only a cursory relation
to what you would be experiencing in a real racing car, absolutely true. I'm
not even going to deny that. What matters is they relate to distinct
behaviours of the car in the sim, allowing the "driver" to pre-empt what the
results of his control inputs will be. That's where immersion, "being there"
comes from. When I drive GPL, GPL is "real", when I drive a real car,
obviously, reality is "real" eventhough, on the sensory level, these are
quite different experiences. I have no trouble switching between these
realities and have no real desire to compare them as, to me, perceived
realism in racing sims is not about how the sim actually looks, sounds and
feels (the brain translates that stuff anyway).

No, perceived realism in a sim depicting a given racing series, IMO, is
about knowledge and memories of it's actual and similar real life
counterparts. I have driven powerfull road cars, I have driven a race
prepared Porsche, I have driven rally cars. I've watched and read about an
awfull lot of motorracing. I'm also a qualified engineer, with a lifelong
interest in physics. I hold I have a pretty good idea of what is possible in
a car and what's not (and I do leave a generous margin in this respect to
account for my own lack of driving talent). I can also identify an occurance
in a sim that is physically impossible when I see one.

When I say GPL is more realistic than Rally Championship that's because if I
drive a car in GPL over an upset in such a way and at such a speed that,
IMO, it shouldn't roll, it doesn't. Whereas in Rally Championship, it does.
There is an in-car lap of Nick Heidfeld in the Sauber at Sepang I downloaded
from "that F1 video site I can't remember nor find the URL of right now". As
I watched it I found myself really agreeing with his approach, so I loaded
up GP3 to "try it for myself". Couldn't do it, no matter how many liberties
I took with setup and driving model... the car in the simulation simply
wouldn't go there. Recently, using F1RC, I can do it with the standard
setup. Not as quickly as Nick, of course, but I can drive around the track
in the same way (same more less goes for all tracks, but this is a rather
poingant example). Therefore, as a simulation, F1RC is more realistic to me
than GP3. The behaviour of the cars conforms more to my notion of how these
cars *should* behave. If you know what I mean.

I'm willing to go along with Shu in as far as we don't have the level of
control precision reality has to offer. This, of course, is a nescessary
evil... if the controls had quasi infinate precision as they do in real
life, there wouldn't be time to calculate the model and present the graphics
on-screen.

He doesn't respond to it, he presents the same argument in a different way.

<quote>
I see it like this: You are able to be more constantly at the limit [of the
car] with it [better electronics] and you don't have to take care of any
power peaks of the engine. It gives us more freedom to drive a bit faster.
</quote>

Exactly Michael. However, in the technology whiner's (sic) point of view,
the "us" part is the offensive bit. In "our" view, it should only be the
Schumachers, Sennas, Prosts and Mansells of this world who are in a position
to drive a given car at the very limit consistently. This allows extremely
talented driver X in not so performant car A to be competitive with very
talented driver Y in very performant car B and we, the viewer, actually get
to see some racing.

Also, I wonder if his viewpoint would be the same if he found himself in a
team on the other side of the technology barrier.

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

By not including Schumacher on the list as one of the greatest drivers, I'm
afraid to say that you MUST be living in the past just a little too much.

It sure doesn't sound like this guy would describe a modern F1 car as
"easy". He compares a FF to a modern F1. Imagine how difficult he would find
it to compete in a full F1 race, as opposed to simply testing the car for
the sake of fun.

From Atlas F1:
Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?

Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
prompt, I did mean to answer it!)

The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like a
totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
me by surprise.

I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal for
a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive downforce
introduced.

I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.

This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners earlier
"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5 metres
later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on opposite
lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your way
out of the run off area and back onto the track.

But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
cars.

Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant apexing
was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing that
the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers talk
about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken a
battering.

So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you could
say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.

Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.

The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1 car
(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
would spin you out of control.

This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working hard

around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't need
full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!

I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
me...phew that was close..." moments...

The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the brakes.
I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
losing control, in an F1 car.

If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an FF1600
(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and obviously,
without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going. If
you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit. But,
and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the straight.
This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
to!

In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change from
6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly in
a tyre wall pizza.

Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.

Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!

Russ Brooks

You don't think that a 32 year old man who had a privileged upbringing in
Germany, and loves auto racing, knows what driving sims/games are, and what
it would take to evaluate them? I knew these things before I was even that
interested in driving sims because they're so obvious. Racing games are
hardly recent inventions.

 I've seen kids sit down in front of driving games and drive them with ease,
including GPL. Your making the same mistake a lot of *** sim racers make,
which is to take these things so seriously that we "talk" ourselves into
believing they are more difficult than they really are, sometimes in order
to justify our (what many people would call childish) hobby to ourselves and
others.

All he's saying, is that without the physical effects of driving a race car,
most of the simulation is gone. Driving a car (sim or real) isn't that hard.
Everybody does it. Simulating a real F1 car without the physical effects is
like simulating sex. Will any computer program ever come within a million
miles of satisfying you in the same way real sex with Cameron Diaz would?
All I'm saying is let's not take this stuff so damn seriously that we
actually think we could mimic what we do on screen if we were "just given
the chance". Let's not put down real life drivers because we think we know
"what it takes". How about not ripping the shit out of one sim, and praising
another as if it's our religion? Perspective.

 > When I say GPL is more realistic than Rally Championship that's because
if I
does.

I rarely EVER rolled the cars in RC. It was never an issue with me or many
other people who drove RC. Real rally cars actually do roll fairly easily
though. You should know that. How do you explain the different experiences
that some had? There is only one answer and that is that some people drove
them correctly, and kept them on a part of the track which wouldn't cause
the car to roll over in real life. Some people drove them at realisitic
speeds, while others had no idea what their speed was as they were going
around a sharp turn. I saw so many replays of people rolling or crashing
their car, and blaming the game. They had no idea how fast they were going,
or what they hit. They simply blamed the game. As for GPL, the reason I lost
interest in it was because IT did things that the real life footage showed
was not accurate. Mainly, the excess sliding and drifting. Good, practiced
drivers criss-crossing the driving line all the way around the track. They
looked nothing like the AI or the real life footage.

 > I'm willing to go along with Shu in as far as we don't have the level of

David G Fisher

David G Fisher

Uh, what's the point of listing the best drivers you've seen.......in
person? You can see a hell of a lot more on TV than you can at an actual
race, or a baseball game, or an NFL game, or.........

David G Fisher

 Scott Johnson
 "Science suggests that beer and 98 degree heat do not enhance your
  swimming ability, but I think it's a really, really good idea for
  people to test that theory as often as possible.  What are you, a
  ***?  You can do it, champ."
   -- Rev. Syd Midnight

RS has out qualified JM in nine of the 12 races, usually by .5 to .9
seconds. In the three races JM qualified higher than RS, he did it by a
COMBINED total of two tenths of a second. When it comes to qualifying, it's
not even close.

RS has three wins, a second, a fourth, and a fifth. JM has two seconds and a
fourth. He crashed out of a few races due soley to driver error. RS has no
such incidences. When it comes to race results, it's not even close.

David G Fisher

--
Remove "688" to reply.

As far as I'm concerned, almost everyone who lives in a Western country in
the second half of the 20th century/beginning of the 21st century is
"privileged" compared to the rest of the current world, and the 50 billion
or so who have walked this planet since the beginning of mankind. Add in the
all the other living creatures like cute little bunny rabbits, elephants,
ants, and dinasours, and the difficulty of their lives, and I don't think a
construction worker in modern day Germany is really that tough a life.
That's my personal opinion. I think most people are a bunch of cry baby
whiners (doesn't mean they are necessarily bad) and don't have a clue how
tough life can really be.

Were going off waaaaaaay off on another r.a.s. tangent. The point is, MS had
access to video games while growing up. If someone is reading this post and
doens't have a clue why we are talking about this "privileged" stuff, you're
not alone.

David G Fisher

David G Fisher