rec.autos.simulators

by **Ed Solhei** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 00:16:29

DGF'ed:

Why do you always have to assume I'm comparing modern day F1 to that of the
60's?
Looking for yet another oppertunity to bash GPL perhaps?

I'm not talking about the 60's or 70's at all.. all I'm saying is that all
these aid's have runied the sport. They have undoubtly made F1 easier...
take Kimi Raikonen for instance.. his 23rd *ever* car race and he scores a
point in F1???

You might think F1 is the most awesome thing on earth - I don't.
Imho - F1 is dieing... and it has been doing so for the last 6-7 years.
I predict that within 5-10 years - F1 as a sport - will be completely gone.
All the private teams will be gone - having being taken over by the car
manufacturers.

You'll end up with Toyota, Ford, Mercedes, Honda, etc. who know's - perhaps
Ferrari will be around to - renamed Fiat perhaps..

I could probably go on and on with this mail - but why bother, you're
clearly a so called F1 "fan" - and no motorsports enthusiast.

--
ed_

by **Nick** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:03:13

hey - thats what the guy said - i was just being sarcastic...

by **Jan Verschuere** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:06:47

RAS is notoriously bad at detecting sarcasm... use of sarcasm tags
(<sarcasm> </sarcasm>) is advised.

Jan. ;-)
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

by **Marty U'Re** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:04:04

> amazing how some people in this ng can take a fairly irreverent post and
> make WW3 out of it . . .

I prefer to think of it as good sport. :)

Marty

> > I think if anyone here at r.a.s. actually had the guts (impossible) to
> tell
> > one of todays F1 drivers that modern F1 was all car and little driver,
> that
> > driver would laugh in their face and then tell them to "piss off you
> fool".
> > If someone here told them that what they were doing was easy compared to
> > drivers in the past, they'd call them an old timer who's stuck in the past
> > and doesn't have a clue.

> > Whenever I hear someone try and put down what an F1 driver of today is
> > doing, I'm reminded of an old time NFL star player named Chuck Bednarick.
> > Whenever he's given the chance, he goes on and on about how the players in
> > his era (the 60's) were better and tougher than today's players. Senile
> > Chuck doesn't have a clue that he wouldn't even sniff a roster spot on a
> > modern NFL team. He'd be lucky to be allowed to paint the lines on the
> > field.

> > Just like Chuck, I don't think many of the drivers from the past would be
> > able to compete in today's F1.

> > Old time brain surgeons were better than those of today because all they
> > needed to operate was a rusty butter knife. Astronauts of today don't
> really
> > do anything because of all the technology. They just sit there and drink
> > Tang. Fred Flintstone was the greatest driver of all time. That guy could
> do
> > it all in the most basic car ever created.

> > Ed, to be honest, I think you and just about everyone else here at r.a.s.
> > would probably shit your pants on the first lap if given the chance to
> drive
> > MS's Ferrari. Your head would feel like it's being ripped off. Your body
> > would be battered and bruised. You'd rather have your nuts cut off then
> even
> > consider braking at the 100 meter mark when doing 180mph. You wouldn't get
> > within a million miles of pushing *the limit*, and therefor still wouldn't
> > have any idea what an F1 driver of today is doing. They are the best
> drivers
> > in the world. The cars are the best in the world. That's why F1 draws 350
> > million viewers per race. It's an ENORMOUS success. Name another sporting
> > event which even comes close. NASCAR draws a measly (in comparison) 8-13
> > million per race.

> > To all the Fred Flintsones in this group, please stop living in the past.

> > David G Fisher

> > > Do you actually think *any* of todays F1 drivers (apart from Jacques
> that
> > > is) would say any thing else ?? -- Does Bernie Ecclestone ring a
> > bell??

> > > If you want an honest oppinion on F1 - go ask someone who *used* to do
> it.

> > > --
> > > ed_

> > > DGF'ed:

> > > > For those who go on and on and on and on and on and on about which sim
> > is
> > > so
> > > > realistic compared to all others, here's a little shot of perspective.
> > He
> > > > also responds to the whiners who say F1 is all technology, and little
> > > about
> > > > the actual drivers.

by **Marty U'Re** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:06:17

> On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 11:43:37 -0700, Marty U'Ren

> >Good point. We should never assume car in a team are equal.

> At Williams they are. Frank puts the constructors championship above
> the drivers, and gives each driver the best equipment possible.

You know this how....?

by **Cliff Roma** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:29:00

Does that mean that someone that WANTS to only rate the drivers that they
have seen in person, Can't?

One should be able to rate them however they like don't you think?
Especially without having someone tell them they were wrong for doing so?

It's all opinion no matter how you do it, and how can one persons opinion be
wrong?

by **Thom j** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:54:13

Well finally another has seen the light! :) Touche` ed_

<znipped>
| I could probably go on and on with this mail - but why bother, you're
| clearly a so called F1 "fan" - and no motorsports enthusiast.
| --
| ed_

---
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by **Graeme Nas** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 02:45:32

No. But he had extensive experience in Formula Nippon and a fair amount
of F1 testing.

Not my point at all.

The point is, in his first season, Ralf was all over the place. he
constantly threw his car off the road, and often took others with him.
Including taking his team-mate out of a race-winning position and his
brother out of a title-winning one.

Give JPM 3 years of F1 race experience and IMHO he'll be running the
show. (What show, lol!)

--
Cheers!
Graeme Nash

by **Marty U'Re** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:39:59

> as any racing driver knows, the most important sense when driving a car
> near/on the limit is feel. you feel the rear wheels begin to lose grip long
> before anybody could see it visually. you correct movements imperceptible to
> the human eye. most racing is reacting to things which cannot be taught by a
> computer simulation.

You are wrong if not alone in not understanding how a computer driving
simulation can produce a 'real' driving experience. As one with a long time
fascination with the nature of competitive driving and with on track and sim
racing experience I have come to understand why to two are fundamentally the
same.

It is, as you said, about feel...feel of the car's reactions to your inputs..
That feel comes from the driver's brain processing the inputs available to it.
While computer sims do lack one important input, g-force to the driver's body,
the bests sims are able to communicate well enough through visual and audible
outputs that the driver's mind can learn to 'feel' the g-forces being modeled by
the computer. Notice I said 'can learn'. How well this is learned is a skill
like any other. Some will be better at it than others. Some will learn it
quicker while other's can become as good with more practice as with any skill.
Make no mistake the feeling is very real to the sim driver. The feeling of
controlling a car at the limit of the car's and driver's potential is the same
in a good simulation as it is in a real car, which is not to say a real car
isn't more satisfying.

There are many accounts of people who didn't enjoy GPL when they first got it.
After seeing how much others were getting out of it tried again and after enough
practice found it to be a fantastic driving experience.

It's sad you haven't been able to get to the point of enjoying the feeling of
driving one of the most challenging forms of motorsport that GPL simulates so
well.

Whether a sim models the function of the clutch pedal is irrelevant to the
fundamentals of how well it models the driving experience.

I tend to agree driving aids have hurt some forms of motorsport but there are
plenty of others that restrict various technologies and produce some of the best
racing.

Marty

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:48:35

You're pretty old, aren't you?

David G Fisher

> >I think it's a lot harder to manually shift a modern F1 car than an older
> >car (from the 60's for example) because the revs are so much higher, and
the
> >cars are so much quicker and faster.

> ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:06:53

It's called young, natural talent. Guys his age and with his experience
dominate in all sports. Tiger Woods puts men with 20 years more of pro
experience to shame. Who's to say Raikkonen wouldn't have scored a point in
F1 in '90', '80, '65? You don't know.

Yep, nobody's watching it anymore.

And you're clearly a guy who pines for the "old days". There are fans like
you in every sport. Always talking about how it used to be better.

I don't know why I bother either, especially after I read this quote from
you, "Modern day F1 is just one giant yaaaaaaaawn... The cars suck, the
tracks
suck, the FIA sucks and the competition in general sucks."

David G Fisher

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:18:20

> does any set of steering wheel/pedals have a clutch pedal?

Yes.

You'd be wrong AGAIN then.

Gerry

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:48:29

First of all, old man, you've "LOL" at something which you have now proved
you didn't read carefully. I said "manually shift a modern F1 car". The cars
previous to this season. So LOL.

The drivers have al;ready proved they can do it, so big deal. As for your
little story about shifting below...........I used to spend a lot of time on
motocross motorcycles. Two wheels. No protection, except me as a buffer for
the bike if I happened to hit one of those trees five feet to my right or
left as I ripped down an undulating, unknown dirt road full of rocks,
gulleys, fallen branches, etc. at 100mph. Throttle and front brake with one
hand. Clutch with the other. One foot shifting. Other foot rear braking.
Shifting my weight constantly.

Big deal. With practice it all quickly becomes second nature. For you, me,
and those drivers you drool over form the past.

David G Fisher

> >You're pretty old, aren't you?

> >David G Fisher

> Yep, I'm ancient.

> But, in my 58 year old opinion, it's harder to drive with one hand
> on the wheel with the other trying to navigate and jerk it's way
> through a gated, non-synchro gearbox, with the right side of
> your right foot blipping the throttle while the left side of your
> right foot operates the brake and your left foot stabs at the
> clutch while approaching a corner at full cry at 180 mph with
> other drivers trying to overtake you.

> You might want to try to contrast this scenario with pushing a
> wheel button, on a modern F1 car, while cornering all alone.

> Again, I say to you ... LOL.

> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 01:51:32 GMT, "David G Fisher"

- Show quoted text -

> >> >I think it's a lot harder to manually shift a modern F1 car than an
older
> >> >car (from the 60's for example) because the revs are so much higher,
and
> >the
> >> >cars are so much quicker and faster.

> >> ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!

by **Jonny Hodgso** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 05:37:08

available to it.

feeling of

Totally agree. As I've mentioned in similar threads in the past, the
same applies to R/C model racing. We talk about the way the car
"feels" to drive, and mean it. I've "felt" parts come loose on my
model cars many times - if not in a totally specific way, at least
enough to say "that's not right" and bring it in for inspection - and
I can immediately "feel" the effect of setup changes, just as I can in
GPL, Gran Turismo or GP2.

Noticed this evening that the "feeling" of the tail of my road car
starting to become light under trailbraking is very much like GPL -
except that in GPL, whenever I try to trailbrake I spin it :-(

Jonny

by **David G Fishe** » Sun, 19 Aug 2001 06:18:52

> >First of all, old man, you've "LOL" at something which you have now
proved
> >you didn't read carefully. I said "manually shift a modern F1 car". The
cars
> >previous to this season. So LOL.

> >The drivers have al;ready proved they can do it, so big deal. As for your
> >little story about shifting below...........I used to spend a lot of time
on
> >motocross motorcycles. Two wheels. No protection, except me as a buffer
for
> >the bike if I happened to hit one of those trees five feet to my right or
> >left as I ripped down an undulating, unknown dirt road full of rocks,
> >gulleys, fallen branches, etc. at 100mph. Throttle and front brake with
one
> >hand. Clutch with the other. One foot shifting. Other foot rear braking.
> >Shifting my weight constantly.

> I'm glad for your bike experience, son, but I spent a lot of years
> in SCCA in FV, FF, CSR, BP. I held an SCCA National and FIA license.
> My last racecar was a Lotus XI Le Mans, chassis #247.

> I have done what I described in my post. A lot.

Yea, and so what? You SHOULD have the same view on shifting then as I do
since you did it "a lot". It's not brain surgery. You drove cars. EVERYBODY
can drive a car. You made a big deal out of the process of manual shifting,
and acted like it's a concept that only guys like you and your heroes of the
past can understand, and a modern F1 driver can't dream of doing. So many of
a certain "type" here at r.a.s. make such a big, fat hairy, deal out of ***
like that. I don't. My self-esteem doesn't get pumped up because I can
MANUALLY SHIFT a motocross bike as I described above.

If only revved could get the chance to drive in today's F1. He'd show 'em.

David G Fisher

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