rec.autos.simulators

> leggo that ego!

> > Yes, you're right. It's obvious from my Fred Flintstone and butter knife
> > comments that I was very upset when I wrote that post.

> > David G Fisher

> if you see somebody claiming that racing sims are great and a realistic
> driving experience, then they have never raced a car, and the only high
> speed cornering they have ever experienced was in a bog-standard 1.1 fiesta
> around the outskirst of town at 25mph.

> if you see somebody claiming that racing and simulating are too different to
> even compare them, then believe them - they know what they are talking
> about. things like gpl are great for the layman to see roughly what racing a
> car requires, but stick the world champion gpl racer in even a 996 turbo
> somewhere like oulton park, and they will be soooo ***it will be pathetic.

> As I said in the other post, "Compared to many people in this world who
> struggle to have enough to eat or a safe place to sleep, he was privileged.
> Was his family at least lower
> middle-class to middle-class before he aeaned his first paycheck as an F1
> driver? Most kids in that position while growing up in a western country had
> a lot of access to video games."

> As far as I'm concerned, almost everyone who lives in a Western country in
> the second half of the 20th century/beginning of the 21st century is
> "privileged" compared to the rest of the current world, and the 50 billion
> or so who have walked this planet since the beginning of mankind. Add in the
> all the other living creatures like cute little bunny rabbits, elephants,
> ants, and dinasours, and the difficulty of their lives, and I don't think a
> construction worker in modern day Germany is really that tough a life.
> That's my personal opinion. I think most people are a bunch of cry baby
> whiners (doesn't mean they are necessarily bad) and don't have a clue how
> tough life can really be.

> Were going off waaaaaaay off on another r.a.s. tangent. The point is, MS had
> access to video games while growing up. If someone is reading this post and
> doens't have a clue why we are talking about this "privileged" stuff, you're
> not alone.

> David G Fisher

>> What the hell does this got to do with telling "the thruth" or not?

>> However, having said that....  what do you think is the easiest:

>> A) Feel the exact correct time and place to grab the gearstick, lift the
>> throttle just enough, engage the correct gear, match the correct rev's and
>> get on the the throttle again at the correct time - not a 10th to early -
>> not  10th to late.     Repeat this 50 times a lap - 70 laps a race.

>> - or -

>> B) Push a button each time you want to gear up a gear - push another
>button
>> each time you want to go down *several* gears. Repeat this 30 times a
>lap -
>> 70 laps a race

>I think it's a lot harder to manually shift a modern F1 car than an older
>car (from the 60's for example) because the revs are so much higher, and the
>cars are so much quicker and faster. The current F1 drivers proved long ago
>they could master that part of driving to the point where it's irrelevent as
>a measue of talent. That's why the automatic shifting aid this year isn't a
>big deal.

>As for the quotes, two guys (one who never drove a modern F1 car) don't like
>the traction control. Big deal. A lot of the current drivers said they
>weren't even sure if they'd use it because they weren't that impressed by
>it, and that it made it even harder for the driver to dance on the edge. If
>the back end starts to go with traction control on, there is NO chance to
>save it. They said that it might even slow them down on some dry circuits,
>but that it could help at a circuit like Monaco (ask Montoya if that's
>true), or if it rains. Alesi says he doesn't ever use it. Aids haven't
>suddenly launched the backmarkers up to the front. Barrichello still can't
>keep up with MS. Where are the great changes in race results due to the
>aids? Has the entire grid suddenly been replaced with F1 drivers who have
>never raced without traction control? Most of the drivers raced for years
>without it, so where has traction control opened up F1 to less talented
>drivers? Those aids will probably be taken away as soon as they find a way
>to reliably police their use, you'll hardly notice, and the drivers probably
>won't care.

>David G Fisher

>> Seeing you're so fond of them...  here's a few quotes for you:

>> "Every time you bring in a driver aid, you're widening the area of
>abilities
>> which can take part and perform" - John Surtees

>> " I acknowledge that it's difficult for someone of my period to make an
>> outright statement because I haven't driven one of the current F1 cars.
>But
>> people with no previous experience can get up to good a speed so quickly,
>> which suggests reaching 90 per cent in an F1 is not that difficult
>ow."  -
>> John Surtees

>> "I think I first tried it in September 1991, and I was amazed. The
>> traditional way into a corner was to brake, wait a little bit, and then
>> control the throttle with the foot, balancing between power and traction
>out
>> of the corner. But with traction control you could brake then immediantly
>> put your foot down and wait because the electronics were doing everything.
>> You didn't have to care how to manage the power"  - Ricardo Patrese

>> "I have the impression things have been done in the last year to make it
>> possible for more people to drive an F1 car.  Some years ago it was like
>> climbing a mountain to reach F1. You had to be good - no, you had to be
>> *special* - to be quick in a grand prix car."    - Ricardo Patrese

>> "Over a race distance, it helps because traction control is always
>perfect,
>> whereas a human will make errors."   - Ricardo Patrese

>> "Traction Control meant a driver could be much more confidentthat he
>wasn't
>> going to have the back end step out unexpectedly. An even more significant
>> aspect is that, over a period of running on a set of tyres, the rate at
>> which they degrade is much reduced if you're running traction control"  -
>> Patrick Head

>> Source: MotorSport magazine, March 2001 - "Farewell to crossed arms"

>> --
>> ed_

>> DGF'ed:

>> > I think if anyone here at r.a.s. actually had the guts (impossible) to
>> tell
>> > one of todays F1 drivers that modern F1 was all car and little driver,
>> that
>> > driver would laugh in their face and then tell them to "piss off you
>> fool".
>> > If someone here told them that what they were doing was easy compared to
>> > drivers in the past, they'd call them an old timer who's stuck in the
>past
>> > and doesn't have a clue. <SNIPPED THE REST>

>> the easiest way to sum up all these posts is to say this:

>> if you see somebody claiming that racing sims are great and a realistic
>> driving experience, then they have never raced a car, and the only high
>> speed cornering they have ever experienced was in a bog-standard 1.1 fiesta
>> around the outskirst of town at 25mph.

>> if you see somebody claiming that racing and simulating are too different to
>> even compare them, then believe them - they know what they are talking
>> about. things like gpl are great for the layman to see roughly what racing a
>> car requires, but stick the world champion gpl racer in even a 996 turbo
>> somewhere like oulton park, and they will be soooo ***it will be pathetic.

>Hi Nick,

>My name is Jon Crooke. In 1986 I won the Australian F2 Championship in one
>of the worlds last ground effects cars. You know, over 4 G's lateral forces
>and brakes that pop your eyeballs. I've also raced every thing from Sprint
>Karts to Superkarts to non-ground effects open wheelers to V8 Supercars.
>Retired from professional race driving with the all-time highest career win
>rate at National level racing. Know a thing or two about driving, I do.

>Anyway, enough about me, let's talk about you.

>You stated that
>> if you see somebody claiming that racing sims are great and a realistic
>> driving experience, then they have never raced a car">.

>Phew, big statement.

>I would agree with you if you said that MOST sims on the market are
>unrealistic, BUT I'm prepared to state that GPL IS (and I'll use your words)
>a great and a realistic driving experience.

>And your statement
>> but stick the world champion gpl racer in even a 996 turbo somewhere like
>> oulton park, and they will be soooo ***it will be pathetic.>

>Let me tell you that if you stuck Wolfgang or any other top GPL driver in a
>real car he would be a superstar. We did that exact experiment here in
>Australia with the 1999 Australian GPL Champion Vail Riches. Never having
>driven a race car or kart of any sort he went out to a race school and drove
>a F/Ford around Oran Park and in 24 laps set the fastest lap time ever done
>in a school car. For that story see www.hyperstimulator.com and click on
>Simulators, then under Latest News click on "Can simulator drivers cut the
>mustard in the real world?"

> > As I said in the other post, "Compared to many people in this world who
> > struggle to have enough to eat or a safe place to sleep, he was
privileged.
> > Was his family at least lower
> > middle-class to middle-class before he aeaned his first paycheck as an
F1
> > driver? Most kids in that position while growing up in a western country
had
> > a lot of access to video games."

> > As far as I'm concerned, almost everyone who lives in a Western country
in
> > the second half of the 20th century/beginning of the 21st century is
> > "privileged" compared to the rest of the current world, and the 50
billion
> > or so who have walked this planet since the beginning of mankind. Add in
the
> > all the other living creatures like cute little bunny rabbits,
elephants,
> > ants, and dinasours, and the difficulty of their lives, and I don't
think a
> > construction worker in modern day Germany is really that tough a life.
> > That's my personal opinion. I think most people are a bunch of cry baby
> > whiners (doesn't mean they are necessarily bad) and don't have a clue
how
> > tough life can really be.

> > Were going off waaaaaaay off on another r.a.s. tangent. The point is, MS
had
> > access to video games while growing up. If someone is reading this post
and
> > doens't have a clue why we are talking about this "privileged" stuff,
you're
> > not alone.

> > David G Fisher

> Rafe Mc

> >After the 2 times Montoya lost the back end of the car putting himself
out
> >of the race, I think Mr. Head may be reconsidering the first part of his
> >statement <G>