rec.autos.simulators

> > >SODA!

> > >> NASCAR!

> > >> Dacid G Fisher

> > >> > You're an ass.

> > PEPSI!

> COKE!

> "Jan Verschueren" <jan.no-spam.verschue...@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:tnlvovnr3e7r4b@news.supernews.com...
> > "David G Fisher" wrote...
> > > For those who go on and on and on and on and on and on
> > > about which sim is so realistic compared to all others,
> > > here's a little shot of perspective.

> > Sorry to burst your bubble and not meaning any disrespect to the soon to
> be
> > quadruple (or is it quintuple already?) F1 World Champion,but without
> > knowing which sims he's talking about, under which circumstance and how
> long
> > he's played them and which equipment he used to do so, his comments are
> next
> > to worthless

> > He *is* an F1 driver, for crying out loud!! -Of course he won't relate
to
> a
> > simulation on his first try. His body and mind are expecting G-loads in
> > response to his control actions and are not getting them, alienating him
> > from the experience. It takes time to train the brain into translating
the
> > visual and audio cues into (mock) sensations about the simulated car.
> > Otherwise everyone would be able to drive simulated cars more or less
> > competently from the word go. Put any non-simracer in front of your PC
and
> > it'll take him 15 minutes to complete a lap at Monza.

> You don't think that a 32 year old man who had a privileged upbringing in
> Germany, and loves auto racing, knows what driving sims/games are, and
what
> it would take to evaluate them? I knew these things before I was even that
> interested in driving sims because they're so obvious. Racing games are
> hardly recent inventions.

> > Couple of seasons ago RTL (German satellite TV station) used to invite
> ex-GP
> > drivers to watch the GP's along with a moderator and a studio audience,
> > momentarily commenting on events in the live coverage as the race
> unfolded.
> > At the end of the show they put them in a simulator (F1 chassis mock-up)
> and
> > had them drive a lap of Hockenheim (using MGPRS2, I think) adding the
> result
> > to a fastest lap list. Without exception, they embarassed themselves.
> > Why? -Because it takes a lot of practise to perceive the world of the
> > simulator as real, plain and simple. If ex-F1 drivers can't do it, what
> > chance has your cousin got?

>  I've seen kids sit down in front of driving games and drive them with
ease,
> including GPL. Your making the same mistake a lot of adult sim racers
make,
> which is to take these things so seriously that we "talk" ourselves into
> believing they are more difficult than they really are, sometimes in order
> to justify our (what many people would call childish) hobby to ourselves
and
> others.

> All he's saying, is that without the physical effects of driving a race
car,
> most of the simulation is gone. Driving a car (sim or real) isn't that
hard.
> Everybody does it. Simulating a real F1 car without the physical effects
is
> like simulating sex. Will any computer program ever come within a million
> miles of satisfying you in the same way real sex with Cameron Diaz would?
> All I'm saying is let's not take this stuff so damn seriously that we
> actually think we could mimic what we do on screen if we were "just given
> the chance". Let's not put down real life drivers because we think we know
> "what it takes". How about not ripping the shit out of one sim, and
praising
> another as if it's our religion? Perspective.

>  > When I say GPL is more realistic than Rally Championship that's because
> if I
> > drive a car in GPL over an upset in such a way and at such a speed that,
> > IMO, it shouldn't roll, it doesn't. Whereas in Rally Championship, it
> does.

> I rarely EVER rolled the cars in RC. It was never an issue with me or many
> other people who drove RC. Real rally cars actually do roll fairly easily
> though. You should know that. How do you explain the different experiences
> that some had? There is only one answer and that is that some people drove
> them correctly, and kept them on a part of the track which wouldn't cause
> the car to roll over in real life. Some people drove them at realisitic
> speeds, while others had no idea what their speed was as they were going
> around a sharp turn. I saw so many replays of people rolling or crashing
> their car, and blaming the game. They had no idea how fast they were
going,
> or what they hit. They simply blamed the game. As for GPL, the reason I
lost
> interest in it was because IT did things that the real life footage showed
> was not accurate. Mainly, the excess sliding and drifting. Good, practiced
> drivers criss-crossing the driving line all the way around the track. They
> looked nothing like the AI or the real life footage.

> > There is an in-car lap of Nick Heidfeld in the Sauber at Sepang I
> downloaded
> > from "that F1 video site I can't remember nor find the URL of right
now".
> As
> > I watched it I found myself really agreeing with his approach, so I
loaded
> > up GP3 to "try it for myself". Couldn't do it, no matter how many
> liberties
> > I took with setup and driving model... the car in the simulation simply
> > wouldn't go there. Recently, using F1RC, I can do it with the standard
> > setup. Not as quickly as Nick, of course, but I can drive around the
track
> > in the same way (same more less goes for all tracks, but this is a
rather
> > poingant example). Therefore, as a simulation, F1RC is more realistic to
> me
> > than GP3. The behaviour of the cars conforms more to my notion of how
> these
> > cars *should* behave. If you know what I mean.

> I'm glad to hear you noticed this about F1RC, but unfortunately, this
group
> which is supposedly the most knowlegeable collection of sim racers on the
> planet has spent little time discussing F1RC's excellent simulation of an
F1
> car's behavior, and more time bickering over a bunch of bullshit.

>  > I'm willing to go along with Shu in as far as we don't have the level
of
> > control precision reality has to offer. This, of course, is a nescessary
> > evil... if the controls had quasi infinate precision as they do in real
> > life, there wouldn't be time to calculate the model and present the
> graphics
> > on-screen.

> > > He also responds to the whiners who say F1 is all technology,
> > > and little about the actual drivers.

> > He doesn't respond to it, he presents the same argument in a different
> way.

> > <quote>
> > I see it like this: You are able to be more constantly at the limit [of
> the
> > car] with it [better electronics] and you don't have to take care of any
> > power peaks of the engine. It gives us more freedom to drive a bit
faster.
> > </quote>

> > Exactly Michael. However, in the technology whiner's (sic) point of
view,
> > the "us" part is the offensive bit. In "our" view, it should only be the
> > Schumachers, Sennas, Prosts and Mansells of this world who are in a
> position
> > to drive a given car at the very limit consistently.

> Without the electronics, no driver would be able to drive those cars near
> their limit. 18,000rpm. 850 hp. Advances in aerodynamics. Grooved tires.
> Incredible braking power. Technology has now made a car which outpaces the
> abilities of a human driver, and that's why the electronic aids exist. I
> want to see what the cars are truly capable of, and the aids make that
> possible. There's the limit, and then there's *the limit*. The true limit
is
> still only reached by the best drivers, so nothing has really changed. The
> driver who reaches that true limit the most consistently, lap after lap
and
> race after race is MS. MS always outperforms his teammates. RS outperforms
> JPM. MH is still probably a bit faster than DC. Zanardi dominated CART and
> his teammate, but couldn't do much in F1. Within a team, there is usually
> one driver who is consistently faster than another. Aids don't prevent
that
> fact from showing through.

> David G Fisher

> Thanks,
> Alex
> David G Fisher <davegfnos...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:z%Ee7.106698$EP6.27795629@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...

> > "Jan Verschueren" <jan.no-spam.verschue...@pandora.be> wrote in message
> > news:tnlvovnr3e7r4b@news.supernews.com...
> > > "David G Fisher" wrote...
> > > > For those who go on and on and on and on and on and on
> > > > about which sim is so realistic compared to all others,
> > > > here's a little shot of perspective.

> > > Sorry to burst your bubble and not meaning any disrespect to the soon
to
> > be
> > > quadruple (or is it quintuple already?) F1 World Champion,but without
> > > knowing which sims he's talking about, under which circumstance and
how
> > long
> > > he's played them and which equipment he used to do so, his comments
are
> > next
> > > to worthless

> > > He *is* an F1 driver, for crying out loud!! -Of course he won't relate
> to
> > a
> > > simulation on his first try. His body and mind are expecting G-loads
in
> > > response to his control actions and are not getting them, alienating
him
> > > from the experience. It takes time to train the brain into translating
> the
> > > visual and audio cues into (mock) sensations about the simulated car.
> > > Otherwise everyone would be able to drive simulated cars more or less
> > > competently from the word go. Put any non-simracer in front of your PC
> and
> > > it'll take him 15 minutes to complete a lap at Monza.

> > You don't think that a 32 year old man who had a privileged upbringing
in
> > Germany, and loves auto racing, knows what driving sims/games are, and
> what
> > it would take to evaluate them? I knew these things before I was even
that
> > interested in driving sims because they're so obvious. Racing games are
> > hardly recent inventions.

> > > Couple of seasons ago RTL (German satellite TV station) used to invite
> > ex-GP
> > > drivers to watch the GP's along with a moderator and a studio
audience,
> > > momentarily commenting on events in the live coverage as the race
> > unfolded.
> > > At the end of the show they put them in a simulator (F1 chassis
mock-up)
> > and
> > > had them drive a lap of Hockenheim (using MGPRS2, I think) adding the
> > result
> > > to a fastest lap list. Without exception, they embarassed themselves.
> > > Why? -Because it takes a lot of practise to perceive the world of the
> > > simulator as real, plain and simple. If ex-F1 drivers can't do it,
what
> > > chance has your cousin got?

> >  I've seen kids sit down in front of driving games and drive them with
> ease,
> > including GPL. Your making the same mistake a lot of adult sim racers
> make,
> > which is to take these things so seriously that we "talk" ourselves into
> > believing they are more difficult than they really are, sometimes in
order
> > to justify our (what many people would call childish) hobby to ourselves
> and
> > others.

> > All he's saying, is that without the physical effects of driving a race
> car,
> > most of the simulation is gone. Driving a car (sim or real) isn't that
> hard.
> > Everybody does it. Simulating a real F1 car without the physical effects
> is
> > like simulating sex. Will any computer program ever come within a
million
> > miles of satisfying you in the same way real sex with Cameron Diaz
would?
> > All I'm saying is let's not take this stuff so damn seriously that we
> > actually think we could mimic what we do on screen if we were "just
given
> > the chance". Let's not put down real life drivers because we think we
know
> > "what it takes". How about not ripping the shit out of one sim, and
> praising
> > another as if it's our religion? Perspective.

> >  > When I say GPL is more realistic than Rally Championship that's
because
> > if I
> > > drive a car in GPL over an upset in such a way and at such a speed
that,
> > > IMO, it shouldn't roll, it doesn't. Whereas in Rally Championship, it
> > does.

> > I rarely EVER rolled the cars in RC. It was never an issue with me or
many
> > other people who drove RC. Real rally cars actually do roll fairly
easily
> > though. You should know that. How do you explain the different
experiences
> > that some had? There is only one answer and that is that some people
drove
> > them correctly, and kept them on a part of the track which wouldn't
cause
> > the car to roll over in real life. Some people drove them at realisitic
> > speeds, while others had no idea what their speed was as they were going
> > around a sharp turn. I saw so many replays of people rolling or crashing
> > their car, and blaming the game. They had no idea how fast they were
> going,
> > or what they hit. They simply blamed the game. As for GPL, the reason I
> lost
> > interest in it was because IT did things that the real life footage
showed
> > was not accurate. Mainly, the excess sliding and drifting. Good,
practiced
> > drivers criss-crossing the driving line all the way around the track.
They
> > looked nothing like the AI or the real life footage.

> > > There is an in-car lap of Nick Heidfeld in the Sauber at Sepang I
> > downloaded
> > > from "that F1 video site I can't remember nor find the URL of right
> now".
> > As
> > > I watched it I found myself really agreeing with his approach, so I
> loaded
> > > up GP3 to "try it for myself". Couldn't do it, no matter how many
> > liberties
> > > I took with setup and driving model... the car in the simulation
simply
> > > wouldn't go there. Recently, using F1RC, I can do it with the standard
> > > setup. Not as quickly as Nick, of course, but I can drive around the
> track
> > > in the same way (same more less goes for all tracks, but this is a
> rather
> > > poingant example). Therefore, as a simulation, F1RC is more realistic
to
> > me
> > > than GP3. The behaviour of the cars conforms more to my notion of how
> > these
> > > cars *should* behave. If you know what I mean.

> > I'm glad to hear you noticed this about F1RC, but unfortunately, this
> group
> > which is supposedly the most knowlegeable collection of sim racers on
the
> > planet has spent little time discussing F1RC's excellent simulation of
an
> F1
> > car's behavior, and more time bickering over a bunch of bullshit.

> >  > I'm willing to go along with Shu in as far as we don't have the level
> of
> > > control precision reality has to offer. This, of course, is a
nescessary
> > > evil... if the controls had quasi infinate precision as they do in
real
> > > life, there wouldn't be time to calculate the model and present the
> > graphics
> > > on-screen.

> > > > He also responds to the whiners who say F1 is all technology,
> > > > and little about the actual drivers.

> > > He doesn't respond to it, he presents the same argument in a different
> > way.

> > > <quote>
> > > I see it like this: You are able to be more constantly at the limit
[of
> > the
> > > car] with it [better electronics] and you don't have to take care of
any
> > > power peaks of the engine. It gives us more freedom to drive a bit
> faster.
> > > </quote>

> > > Exactly Michael. However, in the technology whiner's (sic) point of
> view,
> > > the "us" part is the offensive bit. In "our" view, it should only be
the
> > > Schumachers, Sennas, Prosts and Mansells of this world who are in a
> > position
> > > to drive a given car at the very limit consistently.

> > Without the electronics, no driver would be able to drive those cars
near
> > their limit. 18,000rpm. 850 hp. Advances in aerodynamics. Grooved tires.
> > Incredible braking power. Technology has now made a car which outpaces
the
> > abilities of a human driver, and that's why the electronic aids exist. I
> > want to see what the cars are truly capable of, and the aids make that
> > possible. There's the limit, and then there's *the limit*. The true
limit
> is
> > still only reached by the best drivers, so nothing has really changed.
The
> > driver who reaches that true limit the most consistently, lap after lap
> and
> > race after race is MS. MS always outperforms his teammates. RS
outperforms
> > JPM. MH is still probably a bit faster than DC. Zanardi dominated CART
and
> > his teammate, but couldn't do much in F1. Within a team, there is
usually
> > one driver who is consistently faster than another. Aids don't prevent
> that
> > fact from showing through.

> > David G Fisher

>"David G Fisher" wrote...

>> > I'm not talking about the 60's or 70's  at all..  all I'm saying is that
>> all
>> > these aid's have runied the sport.  They have undoubtly made F1
>easier...
>> > take Kimi Raikonen for instance..  his 23rd *ever* car race and he
>scores
>> a
>> > point in F1???

>> It's called young, natural talent. Guys his age and with his experience
>> dominate in all sports. Tiger Woods puts men with 20 years more of pro
>> experience to shame.
>Err, Tiger Woods has been playing golf since he was three AFAIK. He's
>played
>s l i g h t l y  more than 23 rounds.