rec.autos.simulators

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 03:39:57

I agree E, Steve likely hadnt heard as I hadnt. But I knew it was coming
within milliseconds. I'd assumed Steve's situational awareness was similar
to mine so I went for the pass in what Id assumed a situation Steve would
understand my intentions. I had committed to making the pass in the low
lane in full slow down mode entering 3. Meaning I couldnt slow anymore than
I was already. All of a sudden Steve is coming down very hard right in
front of me. Literally within a foot from contact. I couldnt slow anymore
than I was already trying to so I bumped his rear end, as he slid I was
still slowing as much as I could but still got caught up and my day was
ruined along with steves. If it wasnt blocking as Steve says then its
really just OOTRD. I'd let it go completely myself and thought Steve felt
similar which is why I was so surprised to see Steves post. These kinda
things happen on track and it really isnt a big deal. Better just hash it
out now on the NG than take it onto the track. All is good between Steve
and I.

Mitch

> If your spotter hadn't said anything, isn't it a safe bet that Steve's
hadn't
> either? So in that case, itn's he alloted to take his normal line through
the
> turn. It sounds from your description that at the time he made the turn
in,
> you weren't even alongside. It just so happened that you were able to go
> deeper into the turn, which meant you 'caught' him as he got into the
corner...

> Eldred
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by **spar** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:51:40

As Mitch said I'm ok with what happened and have no issue with Mitch. The
previously discussed incident is done, in the past, resolved with both
parties, and ancient history. It was a racing incident that wasn't that
major but unfortunately took us both out of the race. My previous post meant
to say it wasn't a mirror issue but I was half asleep.

I wonder if there is a difference in outlook between racers that primarily
do road racing and those that primarily race on ovals. During NASCAR races
on TV it appears the racers are more prone to stay in the high groove or the
low groove. This works fine for me (primarily a road racer) at Daytona or
Talledega but on the 1.5 mile and shorter tracks the quickest route for me
is enter high, go low through the middle of the turn and exit high. I know
there is different etiquette in oval racing (like someone is going to get
upset if you just hug the low line all the time) but I may not understand
some of the other unwritten rules. I also don't know what OOTRD means.

Spark

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 05:17:44

> I wonder if there is a difference in outlook between racers that
primarily
> do road racing and those that primarily race on ovals. During NASCAR
races
> on TV it appears the racers are more prone to stay in the high groove or
the
> low groove. This works fine for me (primarily a road racer) at Daytona or
> Talledega but on the 1.5 mile and shorter tracks the quickest route for
me
> is enter high, go low through the middle of the turn and exit high. I
know
> there is different etiquette in oval racing (like someone is going to get
> upset if you just hug the low line all the time) but I may not understand
> some of the other unwritten rules. I also don't know what OOTRD means.

I agree Steve. At a track like Zandy you can lose 3-4 secs a lap stuck
behind someone but have a hell of a job to get by, without the car in front
overtly blocking. In Nascar ovals holding someone up whilst racing for
position seems bad etiquette. One of the things I don't like about Nascar I
guess. The concept of having track position but not really racing the guy
behind because of different strategies. In F1 if you have payed an ace in
terms of strategy and end up the fastest guy on the track but your move
loses you track position it will compromise you. Whereas in Nascar there
seems to be an expectation to let the faster guy go unless it is the last
few percent of the race distance.

I'm not keen on the strategy game preferring more sprint type racing. It is
all irrelevant anyway cos guys like Mitch just go much faster then me
regardless - but it makes me feel better to use my lack of understanding of
Nascar strategy as an excuse when I get lapped :)

Apparently OOTRD="One Of Them Racin' Deals"

Cheers
Tony

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by **Mitch_** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 06:03:25

Well Eldred its hard to say exactly but this is my take. Early in RASCAR we
basically had NO rules at all. We all kinda just came into the races with a
pickup race mentality and the racing clearly showed that. No one really
ever said much and the attitudes from all the drivers became progressively
worse as are races became nothing more than caution lap after caution lap.
Early this year things came to a head. Guys kinda blame the blow up on its
initial roots between David and Tim but really thats just the result of the
real problem. The real, problem imo was guys just werent showing other
drivers any respect under any circumstances. I agreed with RASCARs need for
rules. I along with quite a few others didnt agree with Johns ideas of
which rules, anyway most of us already know the rest. What makes things
different now is guys have raced each other for a long time now and
understand other drivers abilities or lack of. We also preach RESPECT now
over and over demand better connection quality and use any tool we have to
help make guys drive accordingly (Teamspeack, drivers meetings, etc). We
dont have any enforcement policies at all to this point either and things
still have really improved all around. Think about that one hard for a
moment :)

We wont ever eliminate yellow flags but if we can eliminate the needless
ones we can get in some good clean fun racin. With enough green flags laps
in a row you'll eventually end up racin guys your speed and thats when the
real fun of Nascar racing begins. Brian and I had and absolute blast
battling at Mart. Each of us could get to the bumper but just couldnt make
the pass. When ginger or Neil came up on me I knew each was way faster so I
set myself up so I could give them the spot while still not losing ground,
not battling him lap after lap slowing both of us down and setting ourselves
and others up for a really bad ending to your day.

Come on back and see for yourself how things are different. We have a spot
reserved for ya at the back of the grid :0) Youre not gonna take that now
are ya E? :-)

Mitch

by **Eldre** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 12:05:12

>The real, problem imo was guys just werent showing other
>drivers any respect under any circumstances. I agreed with RASCARs need for
>rules. I along with quite a few others didnt agree with Johns ideas of
>which rules, anyway most of us already know the rest. What makes things
>different now is guys have raced each other for a long time now and
>understand other drivers abilities or lack of. We also preach RESPECT now
>over and over demand better connection quality and use any tool we have to
>help make guys drive accordingly (Teamspeack, drivers meetings, etc). We
>dont have any enforcement policies at all to this point either and things
>still have really improved all around. Think about that one hard for a
>moment :)

From my point of view, John and I (and Ed, while he was involved) did that as
well. Ok, so you guys have raced against each other under the 'new regime' for
what, 4 races? Are you seriously trying to tell me that they've gotten to
understand each other more now than they did in the past 2 YEARS? Besides,
many of us have raced against each other on other sims and leagues for years.
For example, Spark, Hoover, ZZ, and I have been in the Screamers league for at
least 3 years. Oliver was in the league as well, but I don't think for as
long. Ginger and a couple others have raced together in the past. Most of the
drivers were hardly strangers.
I looked at the rules on the website. Seems to me that you still have 98%(at
least) of the rules that John put into place. It sounds like you're trying to
say that the reason everyone is a better racer now is because John and I aren't
admins anymore. For that to be true, that would mean that people were ***ing
up on purpose before. Nothing personal, but I ain't buying that...

Nope, I'm not going to take that spot at the back of the grid. Driving around
an oval in last place is much more boring than driving around Spa in the same
position...

Eldred
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by **Michael Horto** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 13:00:58

------snipped a bunch of stuff I have nothing to do with and I have enough
problems with politics in the leagues I admin. ------

I don't know about that Eldred. While the scenery isn't as nice at least on
an oval you'll see other cars sooner than you will a Spa <g>.
--
Michael Horton
http://www.cta-racing.com

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:48:56

Man o man, where you read that from I havent a clue Eldred. I didnt say or
insinuate anything even remotely similar. You asked me a question and I
answered with an opinion. You may not agree with my opinion but dont
read/write something into it that I didnt put there.

One last time Eldred. You werent admins you were volunteers. For whatever
reason neither of you ever could understand that. Im not an admin and
neither is David or anyone for that matter. We volunteer to keep RASCAR
going. We've tried to include everyone in any decisions on rules or
anything related to RASCAR. No individual is bigger than RASCAR. Somehow
you and John felt/feel RASCAR was/is yours and could do whatever you guys
wanted. RASCAR isnt owned by anyone. The drivers in RASCAR make RASCAR
what it is.

Mitch

It sounds like you're trying to

by **John Simmon** » Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:53:16

I think that's more of a lack of web page updates. Afterall, our
cars are still shown in the roster. Ed isn't as aggressive with web
page updates as I was.

No, he's saying it's better because *I'm* not an admin any more. They
hadn't reckoned on you yanking the use of the server.

I don't think people were ***ing up on purpose. It would be pretty
close to impossible to quantify why the racing appears to have gotten
better other than the possibility that people realized that things
were turning to shit pretty fast when you quit and yanked the server,
so they finally decided to get their collective driving ***
together.

by **Mitch_** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 01:07:27

Not even close. First you never were an admin. You volunteered for
anything you did in RASCAR. This is the fundamental flaw in your thinking,
whether it's ego driven isnt important. You and Eldred decided that the
server and John were inclusive to each other when they really werent. Dave
and I are in the same boat as Eldred was with his server yet I dont feel I
OWN RASCAR and Im sure David feels the same.

It really doesnt matter why the driving is better but that it has improved.
Will bad races still happen? Of course they will. Is everything perfect?
Nope. Are we now on the right track? I think so. And all of this without
threats, go figure.

Mitch

by **Eldre** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:02:13

Ok, I don't even know what this means. :-(
We could have had either one without the other...

Eldred
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by **Eldre** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 05:14:04

As you said in one of your replies to someone else, maybe you're too sensitive
to the situation. Maybe I am as well. It pained me to see something that I
liked crash and burn like that...

Ok, you don't like John - I understand that, and can respect your opinion.
David doesn't like me - same statement towards him. I can live with that.
But, we *did* try to get people involved. The problem was, nothing was
working! People were getting pissed(understandably) at running half the race
under yellow. Decisions were made and actions were taken in multiple attempts
to improve the *racing*. Excuse me for being human and TRYING.

I wish you guys well - I really do. Other than my total lack of speed, the
races were often something to look forward to on a Saturday afternoon.

Tell you what - I won't respond anymore. I'll even filter "Rascar" in my
newsreader. Have fun, Mitch.

Eldred
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by **Mitch_** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:41:21

Snipped

It pained me to see something that I

RASCAR hasnt crashed and burned. What because you dont start the server
every week you dont want to play anymore? Nothing has really changed much
at all. We had many great races before the blowup but sadly we had many
more that were really bad. We're still out there trying regardless.

attempts

Ive said at least 10 times I like John. Do I disagree with some of his
ideas?, yes. Do I agree with some of his ideas?, yes also. I cant put
words in Davids mouth but I'd suspect you were never part of any dislike
from his part or mine. I've really tried to bring you and John both back to
racing with RASCAR. Id hoped each of you would contribute on the committee
as youve contributed in the past. Sadly it doesnt look like this will
happen. Things in RASCAR while not perfect are running along ok and moving
forward. I try not to start any threads that re-hash what we went through
but I keep getting sucked backwards re-explaining what Ive said countless
times.

The problem was Eldred you were TRYING through a proxy instead of saying it
yourself. Had you said some of the same exact things John said, things
might have been different. I still often wonder why you let John act the
way he did and silence from you. The first thing we all knew from you is
you were pulling the plug. I sent you numerous un-answered emails on
everything that happened.

We still race every week Eldred and you know youre welcome. I wont keep
asking though, its up to you guys now.

I dont know why you have to go to that extreme Eldred? You asked a question
so I gave you my opinion. We may disagree but we dont need to escalate this
to the point of filtering. Same can be said for Simmons. We're just
beating a dead horse now so I think Ill just drop it. Whether you or John
ever listened before Ill say it one last time. I appreciated everything you
guys did for RASCAR. I showed that clearly by making donations of money as
well as hardware (video card) for the continuation of RASCAR. I refuse to
be treated the way John treats people and I wasnt alone.

Mitch

by **John Simmon** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 06:44:07

Eldred, just in case you did killfile all refernces to "that league",
I starred the name of "that league" so that you'd see this. :)

Eldred, I tried for two weeks to drive that point home. Take it from
someone who knows - you're wasting your time...

I was thinking part of (a lot of?) the improvement in the racing
might be a combination of physics changes and the tweaked setups that
were supplied with the patch. I don't think we had a problem with
respect between drivers as claimed by Mitch. The original fast
setups were a *** to drive, especially if you tried to stay pure to
the sim "ideal" by not using any driving aids, and driving in-car.

I really do miss being able to race on Saturdays, and I'm up for
another attempt that is not "that league" if you want to provide the
server again. Of course, there would be some obvious changes to the
way things are administered... :)

You know my email address if you're interested.

by **Mitch_** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:05:31

How old are you again? If my 17 or 19yr old acted this way they'd get
smacked :0)

> Eldred, just in case you did killfile all refernces to "that league",
> I starred the name of "that league" so that you'd see this. :)

> > Ok, you don't like John - I understand that, and can respect your
opinion.
> > David doesn't like me - same statement towards him. I can live with
that.
> > But, we *did* try to get people involved. The problem was, nothing was
> > working! People were getting pissed(understandably) at running half the
race
> > under yellow. Decisions were made and actions were taken in multiple
attempts
> > to improve the *racing*. Excuse me for being human and TRYING.

> Eldred, I tried for two weeks to drive that point home. Take it from
> someone who knows - you're wasting your time...

> I was thinking part of (a lot of?) the improvement in the racing
> might be a combination of physics changes and the tweaked setups that
> were supplied with the patch. I don't think we had a problem with
> respect between drivers as claimed by Mitch. The original fast
> setups were a *** to drive, especially if you tried to stay pure to
> the sim "ideal" by not using any driving aids, and driving in-car.

> > I wish you guys well - I really do. Other than my total lack of speed,
the
> > races were often something to look forward to on a Saturday afternoon.

> I really do miss being able to race on Saturdays, and I'm up for
> another attempt that is not "that league" if you want to provide the
> server again. Of course, there would be some obvious changes to the
> way things are administered... :)

> You know my email address if you're interested.

by **Tony Rickar** » Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:37:27

> One last time Eldred. You werent admins you were volunteers.
> For whatever reason neither of you ever could understand that.
> Im not an admin and neither is David or anyone for that matter.
> We volunteer to keep RASCAR going.

Mitch, I think you have to respect the history of Rascar. Whatever you think
of his management style John did start Rascar (the Hey Eldred thread) and as
the thread name suggests Eldred provided the server from the outset. John
managed the website, the roster, the schedule and formulated some basic
rules just as someone would if creating say a new motor club. Eldred managed
the invite list and made the server available for the alloted times etc. Yes
they were volunteers, but they were administering the club. Just as a
volunteer manages my son's football club. They managed Rascar just as you
now aim to "keep it going" - same concept - maybe different delivery.

The concept of Rascar was fantastic - racing with the names we have traded
comments with over the years. DGF with his RAS Sucks paint job - and for a
Rookie like me plenty of advice on Nascar rules.

The communal ownership is a worthy principle but I think you are being
overly humble. Somebody has to make some decisions along the way and I don't
see too many polls being conducted which I conclude to mean you are asking
what you believe to be the right people for views. Somebody made a call to
experiment with yellows off.

This isn't a criticism, just an observation that John and Eldred managed
Rascar and now you & Dave do. The difference is the style of
management. It is like a cabinet reshuffle rather than an uprising of the
populous.

I wish you every success, but understand why many here would view John &
Eldred as the original admins of Rascar and that duty (whether you like or
want the title) has transferred to you with a degree of baggage that comes
with it.

The People's Front of Rascar it ain't <G> (or was that the Rascar People's
Front?)

Cheers
Tony

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