rec.autos.simulators

Better look at::

http:www..sharkyextreme.com

http:www.tomshardware.com

I am getting a TNT2 ultra from Hercules and keeping my Voodoo2 in SLI for
Glide games.

My mistake.  I remember now that I was looking
at a TNT2 card that was pitching AGP 4X

-Chris-

---Two wheels are better
---Proud owner of a 1998 ZX-9R

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

First off, Tom's and Sharky's are not places I'd use in determining where my
money goes.  Just not enough depth to their reviews (not enough benchmarks
on different games) and both were running around posting benchmarks of the

has good reviews from a simmers standpoint (not a bunch of Quake
benchmarks) - and www.anandtech.com is usually good too.

V3 IS much faster than SLI in several games, GPL being one.  Many others run
better on the Voodoo3 or Banshee, and almost everything is at least a bit
faster than SLI.  The V3 looks a good bit better, and has excellent 2D.

And NO card now can do AGP4x.  Yes, they can support it, but NO motherboards
use it at this time - a very, very moot point until then.

Any TNT2 is a good card, and gives you 32-bit color support which MAY be
nice to have in the future, but you're sacrificing up to 40% performance vs.
16-bit color - unless you are WAY into Quake3 it's not that big a deal yet.
Other than this, it is NOT far and away a better card than the V3 - the V3

every benchmark I've seen, plus you get Glide support.

Note, I'm not saying the TNT2 is not good to have, especially if you have a
V2 or SLI to go along with it.  But for bang for the buck and game
compatibility it's hard to beat the Voodoo3 - especially if you look at the
fact that TNT2 AND V3 are going to be old news when newer cards come out
later this year.  Better to kick out $100 for a V3 that'll hold you over
than $250 for a TNT2 that you'll still need to upgrade the same time you
would with the V3, IMHO.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com

What really pisses me off about this situation is that a)Diamond sold
people on the V770 'lite' before they ever announced the ultra and b)the
video-out port that was on pre-production cards has been de-contented
out of the shipping versions.

I guess someone else besides Diamond gets my money this time :(

-Larry

My big problem with the V3 is 3dfx's new marketing techniques, and the
lack of competition their current methods have imposed.

We now will pay whatever 3dfx wants us to pay :(

That model just doesn't cut it in todays computing world.

-Larry

They are a lot cheaper than any TNT2 board, aren't they?

Cuts like a new knife in my PC, unless you're talking about
spreadsheets. Then I don't know, I don't use them... ;^)

l8er
ronny

--
Ronald Stoehr                           Alcatel Telecom
voice +49 711 821 46949                 Lorenzstrasse 10
fax +49 711 821 42303                   D-70435 Stuttgart

a) HUh?  The V770 Ultra has been known about for as long as Diamond
announced a TNT2 product.  Heck, the first beta board ship to the media for
review were Ultra boards.

b) get a Hercules TNT2 Ultra then. :)

And, FYI, if you read the review carefully from Sharky they DO say that what
they were testing was a beta TNT2 Ultra card Diamond shipped that yes was
running at the 175mhz level rather than the paltry 150 that Diamond decided
to ship their Ultras at.

This is because the Voodoo3 is competing with TNT, TNT2, ATI cards, Matrox
cards, etc.  And THAT competition is what drove the prices down on the
original Voodoo2's - some companies were making $150 Voodoo2's not long
after they came out, but a Diamond or Creative was still $200-$250 retail,
UNTIL the TNT and Matrox G200 came along.  Then, and only then did they
start creeping below $200.

Competition with other chips will keep the price in line for any future 3dfx
product.  Actually they can be cheaper than competitors since they get more
profit per board than nVidia, etc. since they have no middlemen like Diamond
or Creative taking a slice of the pie.

And remember, it was NOT 3dfx who wanted to make the different brands of
V2's incompatible with each other for SLI purposes, it was Diamond,
Creative, etc., so they could make sure when you wanted another one, you had
to kick out whatever THEY wanted you to spend on theirs - just so you
couldn't get a $150 V2 to go along with the one you paid $300 for, you had
to shell out another $300 to THEM.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com

You missed my point :)

There is NO competition in 3dfx land now.  Unlike the VooDoo I and II,
which had lots of manufactureres using those chipsets, the VooDoo III
only has one.  3dfx.  STB _is_ 3dfx now, so that one doesn't count :)

With nVidia, you have at least half a dozen different manufacturers
using the chipset, which should keep pricing in line.

3dfx wants it all for themselves, and they can have it.

-Larry

Without going to a lot of obscure online retailers to find the absolute
rock-bottom price, I looked at the prices of the TNT2 boards from various
manafacturers.  A 32meg Ultra model could be had from Creative or Xentor for
$229, from Diamond or Hercules $249.  These are retail prices at major
stores, not saying you can't find them cheaper.  Ok, all that wonderful
competition between the boardmakers saves you a whopping $20.

The top Voodoo3, with TV In/Out, and TV/FM tuner will be $249.  The next in
line V3 3000, almost as fast - and quite competitive or even faster than the
top TNT2, is $179.

And the cheapest you can find a retail Voodoo2 is from 3dfx - $100, brand
new.  Even with all the new cards coming out Diamond and Creative were
trying to get $149+ for theirs a few months ago when they were still widely
available.

Where is 3dfx gouging prices?  I for one don't see it at all.  Seems to me
eliminating the middleman has SAVED us money, not cost us.  Even if they
again come out with a card that is the leap over everything that the V1 or
V2 was over it's competition (I doubt that'll happen again) - they won't
price it at $350 just because they can - some *** folks that didn't
blink at dropping $600 on SLI will buy it, but the mainstream won't.  3dfx
is going to go after Joe Consumer going into CompUSA, who sees lot's of
pretty boxes and then looks at pricetags.  If a product is priced too high,
he won't look twice - so 3dfx will continue to be competitive with the other
boardmakers in price, so I don't see any validity in your argument.

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com

Check out www.sharkyextreme.com's latest shootout.  Its all FPS games they
did demos on, well is decent3 an FPS? ;), but still.  Also, before comparing
prices you need to look at amount of onboard memory too...I believe the v3
3000 is only 16megs compared to most ultra's 32 megs, etc, etc.

$250 for a part that isn't full AGP 2x complaint, does not have full 32 bit
output, etc, etc, etc. is gouging and isn't competitive.  Look at the cost
of a lot of standard TNT2 parts out, they are pretty cheap.  Now I don't
think 3dfx is gouging their prices, but still they are a bit high.

Joe Consumer also doesn't generally know the difference between cards...so
3dfx has to keep the prices the same, but they CAN increase them to the same
level as the cards that have more features, offerings, etc than the Voodoo
board because JC doesn't or hasn't done the research in most cases to know
better.

Please review the way computers and purchasing computers have changed
over the last 10 years :)

There _is_ a reason why Mac's cost more than PC's...

-Larry

Question? What is the sales ratio of Macs verses PCs?
Either per 100s, 1000s etc.. Tia
Thom_j.

Not 10 years ago, but early 90's you had Soundblaster soundcards, only made
by Creative.  But you could buy souncards from other manafacturers that did
mostly the same thing, some even better.  That was competition, and the
prices were close, even though there was no competition for an actual
SoundBlaster card from anyone other than Creative.

You can't buy an Intel CPU from anyone other than Intel, but you can buy a
compatible CPU from AMD, and THAT keeps Intel from charging more than they
do - I well remember the periods when CPU competition was weak and we most
definitely paid Intel whatever they wanted and computers were much more
expensive then.

I fail to see any way that 3dfx is monopolizing anything, as I can quite
easily go to the store and buy a graphics card from someone else.  3dfx is
doing no different than Matrox or ATI, and they always seem to have
reasonable prices on their cards although NOBODY else can make a Matrox or
ATI card.  I paid much less for my Voodoo3 than I paid for my Voodoo2, even
with what you say is no competition.  I have yet to see any significant
price differences among the TNT2 boards, when you consider the speed and
other specs.  I never saw that much price difference on the V1's or V2's, or
the original TNT, especially not on brand-new products.  So to say that I
can't see any validity to your argument would be an understatement.  The
real-world as it is plain to see in front of me is the 3dfx products are
priced reasonably in regards to the competition, and that there IS
competition since I can buy something not made by 3dfx.  How much simpler
can that be?

--
Ken's Sig 3.0

"Who is the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi

Go #43 and #44!

volksy (at) geocities (dot) com
volksy (at) yahoo (dot) com