rec.autos.simulators

by **Hai Ph** » Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I haven't been able to get the GPL demo to work for me (something about
a missing svapi.dll file or some such that i haven't been able to figure
out). However, I've always found the perception of speed and depth to
be a real problem with the other Papy simms that I've played with. I
eventually gave up on NASCAR and SODA because I just couldn't get a very
good sensation of how fast I was approaching corners so I keep clipping
corners or spinning out. (The papy simms that I've tried are also
pretty weak at sound, so I keep blowing my engines just to add to the
frustration.) I tend to drive by ear and by speed cues.. so engine
sounds and a good perception of speed are rather crucial for me.

This doesn't really make much sense... Why should a power slide affect
one's speed perception? I don't know if you've ever played with
Europress' IRC, but it manages to do an excellent job of speed
perception and it's modeling of powerslides also pretty good (judging by
watching in-car shots of rally car drivers powersliding through
corners). I can assure you that it doesn't feel anything like taking
the corner at 10mph while actually trying to take it at 90. :)

--
Hai Pham

by Jo » Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Hello Greg, I agree with what you noticed in the demo. I can name more
>than a few people who don't think there is any need for improvement in GPL, by
>the sounds of them, so it makes me happy you were 'brave' enough to post
>something :) Do you think the sometimes slow sense of speed is connected to
>the powerslide-hungry driving model?

Persoanlly I think it's just the poor road textures. Look at the road
- there's almost no texture on it, so it has no sense of movement at
all. Since the road is the closest (i.e., visually fastest) object to
you, this really kills the sensation of speed.

Joe

by **Richard Walk** » Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Yeah, I don't know what goes into programming a sim thats true. But
>I also don't know why the sense of speed should be off in the demo. I tried
>to express that mabey the complexity of the driving model was the culprit -
>from a programming standpoint. But I don't know, obviously. What do you think
>it is?

How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state
the sense of speed? Just a thought....

Cheers,
Richard

by **Richard Walk** » Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>Persoanlly I think it's just the poor road textures. Look at the road
>- there's almost no texture on it, so it has no sense of movement at
>all. Since the road is the closest (i.e., visually fastest) object to
>you, this really kills the sensation of speed.

You shouldn't be looking at the road textures <g> At least not those near
the car...

Cheers,
Richard

by **Byron Forbe** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> I have followed with interest the great debate between fans on realism and
> those who thought GPL was too hard (driving on ice) or unrealistic to be
> fun....
> Anyway, I kinda of find myself sitting on the fence on this one, something
> I do a lot of with the lotus ! ;-)

> I think the main reason opinions differ on this is caused by the perception
> of speed in this game. I think this is an incredibly cool piece of software
> but that speed perception could be greatly improved ! At full speed on the
> straights I feel like going 80, maybe 100 mph max...
> Before i get flamed for lack of experience, I do know rear engines beasts, I
> drive a 911 (and take it to the track regularly).. I think the tail out
> sequences are very well done, it's just that I get a little dissapointed
> *when/why* they happen. Case in point: The last turn before the start finish
> line, IMO, because I have spun there quite a lot while I "felt" that
> I was going so slow I could have gone faster by foot !!! ;-) or pushed the
> car .. Nevertheles, spin city...at a speed which for me felt like 10 mph ! ;-)
> (once again I am not blaming the physics, just the lag between the physics
> and perception). It's also kinda hard to see the wheels lock, which does not
> help. So I think that sim's model is great but that if you think you're doing
> 20 mph while the game "knows (better)" you're doing 90, you're gonna spin
> when you don't expect it .. some of us will adapt, and some of us will get
> dissapointed and criticize the sim....(i'm trying to adapt) Maybe Papy should
> improve that part a little and reduce the perception/reality gap...
> (Maybe I should find a way to display the speed, too, I did not look, but
> still "perception" is the issue)

> Just MHO ! Greg.

I definantly remember how hard it was, and still is at times when I
get overconfident, to spin under braking into the last corner. I think
this has to do with many factors including ideal temps of tyres, too
much rear brake bias and suspension settings in the demo. Also, the car
is often unstable to start with as you round the right hand kink leading
up to it. I have found that to get the car thru safely you need to have
the car as balanced as possible, not lock brakes and also be easing off
the brakes as you approach the corner.

by **Byron Forbe** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > Yeah, I don't know what goes into programming a sim thats true. But
> >I also don't know why the sense of speed should be off in the demo. I tried
> >to express that mabey the complexity of the driving model was the culprit -
> >from a programming standpoint. But I don't know, obviously. What do you think
> >it is?

> How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state
> the sense of speed? Just a thought....

Exactly what I suspect. I always thought CPR was a little
overdone/overmagnified though exciting in this reguard.***pit camera
views in F1/CART seem about the same as ICR2/GP2 to me. And I dare
guesstimate that the view in GPL is the same as ICR2.

by Jo » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>You shouldn't be looking at the road textures <g> At least not those near
>the car...

Well, I don't specifically LOOK at them, but they are the
closest/fastest object, and are really needed to provide a sensation
of speed. Look at Redline Racer, for example - it has excelent,
well-defined road textures and the sense of speed is superb (even if
nothing else about the game is). But the GPL roads are almost
completely blank (except for the turn marks in the corners). Notive
that the worst sense of speed in GPL comes on the straighaway, when
you are moving fastest. The road stands still because it's so plain.

Joe

by **John Walla** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

I actually loved the atmosphere generated by CPR. It may not have been
exactly true to life, but since more people haven't tried CART than
have, is it more important to accurately simulate reality and perhaps
disappoint people, or to deliver a rendition of what people believe
cART to be?

</Rhetorical open-ended question.>

IMO the engine roar and impression of speed in CPR was really good,
leastaways on the road courses, and hotlapping them was really fun if
you disregarded the way the car handled. Strangely enough the ovals
totally lacked this impression of speed - wierd.

Cheers!
John

by **Wolfgang Prei** » Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:00:00

>> How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state
>> the sense of speed? Just a thought....

> Exactly what I suspect. I always thought CPR was a little
>overdone/overmagnified though exciting in this reguard.***pit camera
>views in F1/CART seem about the same as ICR2/GP2 to me. And I dare
>guesstimate that the view in GPL is the same as ICR2.

But then, the sense of speed while actually sitting in a F1 or CART
car undoubtedly is greater than the one you get from the inboard
camera. And we want to simulate *driving* the cars, not watching TV
coverage...
For the record, I find the sensation of speed seriously lacking when
playing the GPL demo on my iP166 w/o 3D card. But this may be my PC
being too slow. ;)

--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

by **Richard Walk** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Look at Redline Racer, for example

To be honest, I'ld rather not :-)

I'll agree that some more road - and near roadside detail - would be
nice. Personally I find the sensation of speed fine, but I want to have
more visual references for braking and, particularly, turn in and apex
points. IRL there are loads of these for the choosing whilst in the GPL
demo there are only really the tyre marks which suffice for braking into
T6 but that's about it. Hopefully there will be more visual references in
the final version and these will also provide a better sensation of
speed.

Cheers,
Richard

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> But then, the sense of speed while actually sitting in a F1 or CART
> car undoubtedly is greater than the one you get from the inboard
> camera. And we want to simulate *driving* the cars, not watching TV
> coverage...
> For the record, I find the sensation of speed seriously lacking when
> playing the GPL demo on my iP166 w/o 3D card. But this may be my PC
> being too slow. ;)

If "w/o" means without as I'm sure it does then rest assured you have
not played the GPL demo yet :) 10fps maybe?

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> I'll agree that some more road - and near roadside detail - would be
> nice. Personally I find the sensation of speed fine, but I want to have
> more visual references for braking and, particularly, turn in and apex
> points. IRL there are loads of these for the choosing whilst in the GPL
> demo there are only really the tyre marks which suffice for braking into
> T6 but that's about it. Hopefully there will be more visual references in
> the final version and these will also provide a better sensation of
> speed.

I find GPL to be quite ok on this score ie braking markers. The only
place you really need a marker is on T4 and you have it. T6 is a matter
of how long after straightening the car do you wish to wait and T8 is a
matter of revs and/or time in a certain gear. I find this to be true
also of ICR2 in most cases. I usually jump on the brakes or ease off at
a certain part of a certain gear.

rec.autos.simulators

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism

GPL: Sense of speed / realism