rec.autos.simulators

It looks basically the same. By far the biggest difference is
the...........menu.

Damage (sorry jason) seems the same. Whack a wall at 200mph with your front
right at Michigan and the wheel and tire is just fine. Not even a wobble. No
real visual damage to the body around the wheel. Lap times barely suffer.

There were supposed to be bumpy tracks in N2003. Where are they? Michigan is
smooth as glass.

Yes, the cars do handle differently and better IMO, and that's important.
Much more grip through the turns even as the tires wear down. People will
probably be running multiple lines and replays may now look like the real
races do at tracks like California and Michigan. With such a drastic
difference (it was immediately obvious), where are the people who insisted
that Papyrus had it JUST RIGHT in N2002? Those are apparently the same
people who insisted they had the tire model and grip just right in GPL. They
would be called "Papy groupies".

I'll buy N2003 for the RASCAR races. $50 is very, very cheap for all the fun
I get from those races. I always say sims are extremely cheap considering
how much enjoyment I get out of them, and how much work and artistry goes
into them form the developers and publishers. I just don't want to hear how
from Papyrus fans how one developer is supposedly ripping us off with a
minor update at full price when N2003 is absolutely a minor update, and
nothing else.

David G Fisher

You can't have it both ways. A minor update only Papy fans would
consider acceptable at full price and a significant change proving N2002
wasn't perfect.

Cheers
Tony

Chad

As a beta tester for N2003, Papyrus has allowed me to discuss some of the
new features that will be included in N2003. The reason I'm giving you guys
this information is to show you how many things have been added, changed or
updated. At 1st look, many may not recognize all the work that has gone into
this sim. I can honestly say this is the best & most realistic NASCAR racing
sim to date :)

Improved physics. Input supplied by actual WC chief engineers
Tires & grip modeled directly from Goodyear specs
50 more horsepower
Wall glue less sticky
Improved AI
Improved graphics
Improved sounds (in car, replays, menus)
Actual WC setups
Updated tracks
Realistic weather that changes during sessions and race
Live weather updates shown on F1 screen
Tire temps now start out warmer or colder depending on track weather
Pace car is now a ghost car
Far-chase driving view
Adjustable***pit view
Off-line league support in exported standings
Polling & vote system
Additional admin. commands
Advanced controller options
Advanced graphic options
Gamma & brightness options
Shadows options. On ground from cars & structures. Shadows on cars from
other cars & structures as well as into***pit
Reflections on structures
Solar effects
Track lighting
Hard core mode
Windshield buildup
Bumpy tracks accurately modeled
3d crowds
Stability driving aid
Animated objects (planes, blimps, helicopters)
Animated flags indicating wind direction
Opponent pit crew & pit box option
Improved pit crew graphics
Ability to set pit stop frequency
Adaptive speed control for AI
Auto option for setting AI behavior that adjusts itself automatically based
on past performances
Damage remodeled
Driver hand movements on wheel in rear chase view
Texture filtering options
Smaller fuel tanks at restrictor tracks
Updated rules & penalties

--
www.sascar.com

Yes, it's still a minor update. How long am I supposed to believe it takes
to adjust the tire model/grip? A year of 14 hour days by the entire Papyrus
development team?

I know, I know, it's more complicated than that. The building of the space
station is nothing in comparison.

David G Fisher

It might. There isn't to many of them left these days. lol

MadDAWG

Do you have "damage" turned on? I hit a wall at Michigan at well under 200
and the front end was mashed up, the car wobbled like hell and I had a flat
tire.

Chad already gave us an impressive changelog for a 'minor update' ;-) but
the list doesn't mention some aspects I personally find important.

- the AI that fender rubbing now works a lot better, and the odds are more
realistically distributed between the AI and the human player than before.

- there's an option to include various levels of telemetry into the replay.
This gives use more control over the replay size and also a better way to
check cheating in controlled environments like leagues and hotlap charts.

- as for the bumps, Michigan doesn't have many, but you can clearly notice
them for example coming out of T4. I suppose they're subtle on the real
track as well? You may need to crank up the FF, it's pretty subtle in N2k3.

- things like the windscreen buildup, solar effects or the movable driver
seat aren't graphics, they're improvements towards more realism as they
play a role in real racing.

- excellent sensation of speed

- the snappiness that has always existed in Papy's sims under certain
circumstances has been reduced to a credible level. This has so far been my
only gripe with Papy's physics, and it's been cured now. I don't know
whether it required a substantial change in some of the underlying formulae
or only an adjustment of parameters, but anyway. It's nice to have.

- I find the damage partly more realistic actually, when it's been set to
realistic - it corresponds better to how  the impact actually occurs. As for
the maximum level of damage incurred, well, this is a beta demo, we'll see
how they fine-tuned it for the final product.

- as for the changed physics, that's IMHO no contradiction. Papy had more
credible physics than their compeition since GPL, which did fairly well what
real cars do, but of course they got improved every year. What a real
_Nascar_ does, neither of us knows, and that probably even differs from year
to year as different tires and rule changes are introduced, and from car to
car. Sims can only be an appoximation of a common denominator there. N2002
had a detailed physics model which under most circumstances in a credible
way did what a real car would do - that's all you can expect. And it did it
better than most other sims, except IMHO the GTR2002 mod which is pretty
darn impressive as well. N2003 now introduces the know-how of an actual
Nascar race engineer, and hence feels more like a real average Nascar (ar
rather, like the ones this engineer builds and maintains). That's nice
progress, but doesn't invalidate previous physics models - both the old and
the new one were credible physics models for a car.

Now if you want to reply Dave, before you reply, please sit back ;-) and
make yourself aware that it isn't my purpose to yank your chain, to annoy
you or to make you angry. I've written the above after some serious thinking
and consideration, as a contribution of thoughts and facts to the topic.
Don't call me names or accuse me of***ing someone's boots ;-)

Achim

No.

No.

Yeah a simple sentence about the physics in your post.  Good job!

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

More then that.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

List these people, please.

So if the track renditions were good in N2002 is the look supposed to
change?  They're the same tracks.

What angle did you whack the wall at?  I've seen wall brushes in real
races where the car got away with it.  In my limited running the
damage seems better - graphically and how you're effected.

Try Talladega.  I have never driven either track in real life, but
Tally in this demo is bumpier than in N2002 and it affects handling
and the FF effects.

Um, "absolutely, positively a minor update"
OK

Name a better NASCAR sim at the time.  Technology moves on, these
things improve over time.

"such a drastic difference (it was immediately obvious)"
OK

I don't see so-called "Papyrus fans" doing this.  Even you don't seem
to be able to make up your mind whether this is "a drastic difference"
or "a minor update".  N2002 was (and is) I M O an excellent NASCAR
Sim.  Updates to something of such high quality will therefore not
make the whole thing feel like a completely different experience.
They're gonna be tweeks and niceities that can take advantage of more
modern hardware.  They're simulating the same thing, after all.

Regards,

Mark

Can't be bothered.

I heard so much about graphical improvements, and it looks the same.
Therefor, another area where this is a minor update.

A big enough angle where the car (any car) should of been sent to the
scrapyard. At least the body should of been damaged a bit around the wheel.
The wheel itself should of been gone. Same type of damage as in N2002. Minor
update if updated at all.

What about Michigan?

I have tried Talladega and it's still pretty damn smooth.

I guess you haven't read any other posts in this thread. Updating the tire
model/grip (just one aspect of the sim) does not make the ENTIRE game a
major update to N2002. I wonder how many other Papy guys will try to claim
I'm contradicting myself in this thread.

How does what you say above change the fact that they were wrong?

See above.

Again, see above, and elsewhere in this thread. Tire model/grip is just one
feature of the driving model, which is just one feature of the entire sim.

David G Fisher

First--

Then--

Can't have it both ways David.  No changes except menus or drastic
changes in car handling.  Which way ya gonna go??

--

Fester

Destroy the Borg?  Upload Windows 95 !

How many more?

David G Fisher

--

Fester

A mathematician is a machine for converting coffee into theorems.

As far as how it effects the driving, I can't say I'm noticing a
difference but I've only spent an hour or two with it so far.

Jason