rec.autos.simulators

  Because he's right about the denial points....sure, folks
agree.........now, after the fact.  Before it was mentioned by the Papy
folks, very few if any agreed.  I had the same thing happen to me, in both
GPL and the Nascar sims.
  He's a bit more adamant about things than I am, or care to be, but also
basically correct imo.

  I also agree GPL is the best single-seater, etc.  Same with the Nascar
sims.  But I also don't think they're not without major flaws, and if
Company X made them, they'd be hammered left and right I bet.

John

Hot slick tyres are hot slick tyres and marbles are marbles, regardless of
what car they're mounted or which track they happen to be strewn about on.

The point is ridding ones tyres of pick-up can be done efficiently and
gracefully, without endangering oneself or other drivers for a prolonged
period of time.

Jan.
=---

  The tires aren't even close to the same compounds Jan, let alone the
tracks.  43 stock car drivers year after year, race after race, aren't
wrong.  Guess we agree to disagree here.

John

- I'm hoping the improved fender rubbing comes from better collision
detection routines and hence works better online as well - knock on wood.

- the bumps are not impressive at the two demoed ovals. I'm also a bit
disappointed by them. But then, I have no idea how significant they are at
the real tracks. I assume they're quite moderate on SW and SS ovals,
considering the speeds which are driven there. I hope they're more
significant on other tracks in the full version of the game, especially on
the RC's.

- windscreen buildup etc. - the fact that it's been done in other games
before doesn't mean it's not nice to have it in N2k3 as well ;-)

- snappiness is not what Jason is talking about. I'm not an expert for this
but I think the snappiness I'm referring to comes from elasticity parameters
of the car's suspension and chassis components, and from how the resulting
force vectors and their strengths are calculated. Including struts, shocks,
tires, arms etc. and even weight transfer vectors, inertia and such. But I'm
only guessing here

- as for the changes we perceive in the driving, I don't think it's just the
grip levels. I think other changes were made as well, as several aspect's of
the car's behaviour make me believe that either the formulae calculating the
actions of the car's suspension/chassis components or the parameters fed to
them (like suspension/chassis geometry) were changed. But again this is
purely my opinion without any fact to back it up.

- the telemetry/cheating aspect is significant for online leagues etc., so
it's worth the money for them.

As for your comments regarding contradictions in the statements made by Papy
fans, please understand that I'd rather keep out of that discussion. I'm
getting too old for this ;-)

Achim

Group Hug...  Scratch that, some of you freaks scare me ;)

Mitch

John

The snappiness that you're referring to is something that has bothered
me as well, altho I can't recall experiencing it at the larger tracks
in N4/2002 except for under unusual crash-related circumstances.  If
I'm thinking of the same thing you are, it was much more noticeable at
Watkins Glen and especially Sears Point as well as the converted road
courses.  Really I'm going to hold off on any significant praise or
criticism for the new physics model until we get a chance to try it
out on some tracks that have a more complex effect on the overall
dynamics of the car.

Now that I think of it, I do believe I've experienced sudden snaps at
Michigan in the past which I haven't seen in the beta build so far,
but I haven't put enough time in to determine if they're gone.  I
haven't experienced the anoying quick-twitch up the banking and head
on into the wall as of yet.

Jason

And I agree that we need to wait for the full version before we praise or
criticise, all I'm saying here is of course first impression and only
applies to this beta-demo.

Achim

...
...

What you mean to tell me all these guys that scream realism won't spend a
few bucks if its needed <gasp> You can't turn the sun off in real life.  lol

MadDAWG

The bumps in GTR are comical - at least at Siverstone which is one of
the few tracks I've tried.

Either the bumps are over exagerated or the physics of the game can't
handle them.  I bought F12002 for GTR.  Not tried the F1 side, but
drove Donnington and Brands in an N-GT class Porsche and thought it
was good, tried Silverstone and it put me off.
I can't comment from experience, but doesn't NT2003 suffer similarly?

Regards,

Mark

Do you *honestly* think anyone gives a shit about which company
produces a sim?  Do you not think Papy are (generally) respected
because they've earned it?  Do you also think that if they released a
POS that people would not state it as being a POS?  ISI have, by
accounts I've read here, produced a competent, flawed (like *all* sims
are) sim in F12002.  LFS is also highly regarded.  I think people
pretty much give credit where it's due around here, but for some
strange reason there's a *** few who like to take snipes at Papy.
 What I *don't* see are so-called "Papy Nazis", just people who
*happen to* enjoy sims that have been produced by that company.

At the end of the day, until Papy produces some crap, and I hope it
doesn't come to that, we will never know if there are *really* people
around here who just blindly preach that all that Papy produces is
gold whilst trashing all else.

I seriously doubt that there is anyone like that on this NG, but I
don't doubt for a second that there are people around here who feel
more comfortable with themselves if they believe "Papy Nazis" are a
reality.

Regards,

Mark

As for the exaggeration - sometimes you hear racedrivers complaining about
bumps making their backs hurt over a race distance. I assume for this to
happen, the bumps need to have a certain magnitude, so maybe the bumps on
the F1_2002 tracks aren't that exaggerated after all?

Achim

...
...

  Shrugs.  No need to get worked up about it.  I'm not.

John

It happened in the case of F1 2002.  The *** Papy fanboys thought it
was mediocre until Doug Arnao did wonders with the underlying physics engine
in GTR 2002.  I find nothing that drives better than GTR 2002.  I'm sure
there are many who still claim "it's no GPL".  While it's fair to say that
ISI didn't maximize their engine with F1 2002, it was still far better than
it was given credit by some GPL fanatics.  The "true" expert (Arnao) knew
the quality of the sim all along.  Classic double standard.

--
Joe M.