Piston,
It is not that I disagree with you completely, and my attitude was no
less harsh than yours (I am refering to your remark about visiting a
shrink if your opinion is such and such), I was trying to respond in a
simmilar manner with a point taken in the other direction.
Let's try to discuss things then in a constructive manner, instead of
pointlessly fighting.
> You know nothing about me nor what I do and yet you seem to dismiss every thing I say
> without even bothering to discuss it with me and presume you know it all yourself..
I really do not know anything about you, and you didn't say much about
yourself either. About myself then, my name is obvious, otherwise I am
pursuing a Ph.D. in Physics at University of Ljubljana (University of
Maribor is where I work) in the field of quantum chaos. I do not want to
claim that this makes me know a lot about technicalities of cars as this
is probably not true, just to let you know from which standpoint I am
looking at the issue.
Never was my intention to dismiss what you wrote, I just didn't take the
time to respond to all of your post but to just a part of it (the one I
find mildly insulting if I may say so).
I agree with you completely, if any of us who only have sim experience
in driving true race cars (rental karts and such excepted) were put into
a***pit of a F1 car, none of us would come near competitive speeds in
a short time. But this would probably stem from the whole new spectrum
of senses and an overwhelment by them, which would take our focus away
from what we do know.
I do believe that if we drove a car remotely from a screen with a camera
attached to the***pit, some of us (not me, for sure) might do it
better than some of the racing drivers, simply because we are more used
to the information this would provide, while in real life other senses
come into picture more and a rela racing driver can put those into
effect. And, yes, I believe sims of today have reached the point where
they can display the technical if not sensual behaviour of the cars
correctly. Why do I think so? Because apart from material flexibility
there is not a whole lot left to be modelled post GPL in PC sims.
On the other hand, I am not the kind of person to presume I know it all,
and I am always willing to discuss things. I am more than happy if
someone can prove me wrong with strong arguments as that's the best way
to learn new stuff. I think you will agree with me that after a single
post by you and then by me, you cannot say there was much room for
discussion.
No, I haven't seen such a sim in person, true enough, only a couple of
car manufacturers sims on the TV (which did sport a 3D environment). But
I can imagine that a 3d representaion is not strictly necessary when you
are trying to establish the performance of a car. But the simulation
core is similar in both cases, and that was what I was refering to.
Yes, see above, as the information we get in sims is not what a racing
driver is used to, so the sims in my opinion cannot contribute to his
performance.
Agreed. Apart from mental exhaustion, I know I am done after a long GPL
online race.
This is where I mildly disagree, see above, as GPL takes into account
most of the theory that you can, for example, find in the Milliken's
book apart from material compliances, and I am not sure whether they
model the steering behaviour of the wheel properly, i.e. castor and
kingpin angles, but I think they do.
I've never claimed that any is harder than the other, both are hard but
for different reasons. Actually, doing anything at the limit is hard,
and true racing is at the limit. As you, I think basing it purely on the
sims is not really appropriate as there is so many sensual factors left
out. But, I do believe that the technical aspects (how much throttle or
braking or steering wheel one may apply) may be simulated correctly on
nowadays sims, so it can give some indication. But as hardness is a
percieved thing, the amount of perception we get from today's sim is
probably a bit too low to be conclusive.
At least as much as yours my attitude was a bit out of place here. I do
feel strongly about someone calling me insane for believing that you can
actually represent behaviour (if not sensual perception) of a racecar on
PCs. But, I see that your post was not intended for people who belive
that, but those who think that are born racing drivers after they put in
a hotlap in GP2.
At least, a good discussion cam out of it.
> Goodbye,
> > Car companies use simulators to predict car behaviour that are in
> > principle not much more sophisticated than the ones we use, not to speak
> > about racing teams. If you want to see a comparison of a simulated and
> > actually measured car behaviour unde the same inputs, read Millikens'
> > 'Race Car Vehicle Dynamics'. And the results presented there, while
> > truly impressive, are far from being what can be achieved by simulators
> > of today, even on our own PCs.
> > If you really believe all of this, what are you doing on this newsgroup
> > anyway? It is about simulators, and we know what simulating means. If
> > you don't believe in PC simulations becoming a progressively better
> > reflection of reality, then I really don't see how you could positively
> > contribute to this community that strives towards this goal.
> > -Gregor
-Gregor
