rec.autos.simulators

F1 2001: what I don't get...

Ice

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Ice » Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:40:52

There are many great games out there, and I'm often amazed at how it's
possible to 'make' stuff like that. It's just unbelievable to me, maybe
you've had this feeling as well. It's like the mystery of the lightbulb,
multiplied by one hundred. And I don't necessarily *want* to know how it's
all done, I'm quite happy being in the dark about this. I grew up with
videogames, and I've basically seen it all: from Pong to Porsche Unleashed
(so to speak), and I take my hat of to all the creative geniuses that made
it all happen. But here's what I don't get: if you're so damn' smart that
you can create a racing game like eeeeuhm...  well F1 2001 for instance (why
not), how come you***up the controller settings big time! In my mind,
fixing such a problem ought to be infinitely more simple to create the game
itself. And if they are aware of the problem - and I'm sure they are - why
don't they ***y fix it then!!! In my opinion, there's no excuse for this.
People pay good money for their stuff, they'd better make sure it works
properly.

Had to get that of my chest...

Happy racing,

Ice D

Ashley McConnel

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Ashley McConnel » Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:56:32

Hi Ice,

A good and considered point well made (rather than the moany rubbish I
have heard from other people).  In their defence they were probably
pushed to the last second to get everything done, I for one didnt have
anyu controller problems with either the MSFF or the LWFF. They probably
had a limited number of controller / GFX card / Sound card / motherboard
combination.  It would be hard to test every single combination of these
without a major public beta test, which also comes with its problems,
eg. Arranging distribution, both online and mail, piracy and dealing
with all the replies from probably testers that dont know the
information the developer needs to fix the problem.

I guess I can see it from the other side of the fence as I am trying to
write my own sim at the minute, and as you say it is incredibly hard.  I
reckon F1 2001 is an awesome attempt at a modern F1 and should be
applauded.  There are problems of course, but I think on the whole they
have made good decisions on what to implement and what to leave out
because of time.

All the best,
Ash - who will not feed the inevitable trolls :)


> There are many great games out there, and I'm often amazed at how it's
> possible to 'make' stuff like that. It's just unbelievable to me, maybe
> you've had this feeling as well. It's like the mystery of the lightbulb,
> multiplied by one hundred. And I don't necessarily *want* to know how it's
> all done, I'm quite happy being in the dark about this. I grew up with
> videogames, and I've basically seen it all: from Pong to Porsche Unleashed
> (so to speak), and I take my hat of to all the creative geniuses that made
> it all happen. But here's what I don't get: if you're so damn' smart that
> you can create a racing game like eeeeuhm...  well F1 2001 for instance (why
> not), how come you***up the controller settings big time! In my mind,
> fixing such a problem ought to be infinitely more simple to create the game
> itself. And if they are aware of the problem - and I'm sure they are - why
> don't they ***y fix it then!!! In my opinion, there's no excuse for this.
> People pay good money for their stuff, they'd better make sure it works
> properly.

> Had to get that of my chest...

> Happy racing,

> Ice D

Txl

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Txl » Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:39:44

well, what can I say....I AGREE !!!



Joe Marque

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Joe Marque » Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:45:51

I have one theory: no usability testing.  I worked for an online firm with a
very expensive usability lab.  We were supposed to bring in customers and
observe them using our system.  Problem is we never did.  Perhaps it's
overconfidence or arrogance but our tech group never properly utilized
customer feedback to improve our system from a usability standpoint.  Sure
it worked, but it was not the easiest to use, best organized, most feature
rich, etc.

I suspect the same thing happens here.  Forget using a usability lab, they
probably don't even have one.  The only testing is beta.  Beta testers are
typically advanced users and their primary role is bug hunting.  They are
probably the wrong group to also analyze the usability of the program by the
typical buyer since they are atypical.

There should be separate usability test by ***bastards like me who will
quickly find the flaws (menu system, controller set-up screen, etc.) that
make the game unnecessarily cumbersome or annoying.

BTW, I'm sure they are aware of this, it is probably just not in the budget.

--
Joe Marques


Haqsa

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Haqsa » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:58:42

It might help a little if people would say what problems they are having
instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure what
some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a Sidewinder
Precision 2 joystick, a Logitech Rumblepad, and two different Logitech
FF GP wheels and have not had any problems.  None.  The only thing I can
think of is that the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they like.
Exactly what problem are you having anyway?


Txl

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Txl » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:15:15

it's impossible to keep the car going straight to start with



> It might help a little if people would say what problems they are having
> instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure what
> some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a Sidewinder
> Precision 2 joystick, a Logitech Rumblepad, and two different Logitech
> FF GP wheels and have not had any problems.  None.  The only thing I can
> think of is that the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
> that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they like.
> Exactly what problem are you having anyway?



> > There are many great games out there, and I'm often amazed at how it's
> > possible to 'make' stuff like that. It's just unbelievable to me,
> maybe
> > you've had this feeling as well. It's like the mystery of the
> lightbulb,
> > multiplied by one hundred. And I don't necessarily *want* to know how
> it's
> > all done, I'm quite happy being in the dark about this. I grew up with
> > videogames, and I've basically seen it all: from Pong to Porsche
> Unleashed
> > (so to speak), and I take my hat of to all the creative geniuses that
> made
> > it all happen. But here's what I don't get: if you're so damn' smart
> that
> > you can create a racing game like eeeeuhm...  well F1 2001 for
> instance (why
> > not), how come you***up the controller settings big time! In my
> mind,
> > fixing such a problem ought to be infinitely more simple to create the
> game
> > itself. And if they are aware of the problem - and I'm sure they are -
> why
> > don't they ***y fix it then!!! In my opinion, there's no excuse for
> this.
> > People pay good money for their stuff, they'd better make sure it
> works
> > properly.

> > Had to get that of my chest...

> > Happy racing,

> > Ice D

Jason Mond

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Jason Mond » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:18:36

FWIW, On the main controllers screen, leave the entries at 50% and 50%.
Goto the advanced setup and set the X-axis (steering axis) to 40% or
less.  

This reduced the deadzone in the middle of the wheel for me enough so I
could steer quite reliably.  I didn't use DXTweak so a slight deadzone
is apparent, but not a major problem.

Jason.
(Ferrari FF)


> it's impossible to keep the car going straight to start with



> > It might help a little if people would say what problems they are having
> > instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure what
> > some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a Sidewinder

--
Jason Monds
http://www.racesimcentral.net/ - Pro Racing Club! (GPL)
http://www.racesimcentral.net/ - Stock Car Division of the PRC. (N4, Fun Run Sims)
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)
Rob Adam

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Rob Adam » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:31:16


My problem is:
the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they like.

;-)

Sorry, but what more do you want? Sensitivity sliders that aren't *really*
sensitivity but instead are some kind of magic linearity settings that only
a few gurus have figured out, poor documentation of what settings to use for
various categories of controllers (joystick, wheel, gamepad, etc.). Those
are the problems that I'm having.

I have driven dozens of games using my LWFF and F1 2001 is the ONLY game
where I can't keep the car straight on the straightaways. If I turn the
deadzone down to 0 it wanders, if I turn the deadzone up to where it doesn't
wander it's not sensitive enough. Not a problem in GPL, N4, RT, SCGT, CMR2,
MBTR, RC2000, NFS:PU and others which slip my mind. In those games I just
turned the deadzones to 0, fiddled with the (usually sole) sensitivity
slider and the wheel just worked.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game and it's by far the best modern F1 sim
I've played, but the controller code sucks relative to other driving games,
both old and new.

Rob

Iain Mackenzi

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Iain Mackenzi » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 09:06:10

Look, you guys have got some sort of problem here.  This is not normal F1
2001 behaviour.  I had the exact same problem with my Ferrari FF wheel when
I was using the latest drivers - not able to keep a straight line,
vibrating, jerking, etc. etc. Whenever I switched back to the older ones,
the problem just went away. The FF and control is absolutely superb!
You can resolve it. Believe me it's worth it!
Iain




> > It might help a little if people would say what problems they are having
> > instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure what
> > some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a Sidewinder
> > Precision 2 joystick, a Logitech Rumblepad, and two different Logitech
> > FF GP wheels and have not had any problems.  None.  The only thing I can
> > think of is that the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
> > that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they like.
> > Exactly what problem are you having anyway?

> My problem is:
> the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
> that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they like.

> ;-)

> Sorry, but what more do you want? Sensitivity sliders that aren't *really*
> sensitivity but instead are some kind of magic linearity settings that
only
> a few gurus have figured out, poor documentation of what settings to use
for
> various categories of controllers (joystick, wheel, gamepad, etc.). Those
> are the problems that I'm having.

> I have driven dozens of games using my LWFF and F1 2001 is the ONLY game
> where I can't keep the car straight on the straightaways. If I turn the
> deadzone down to 0 it wanders, if I turn the deadzone up to where it
doesn't
> wander it's not sensitive enough. Not a problem in GPL, N4, RT, SCGT,
CMR2,
> MBTR, RC2000, NFS:PU and others which slip my mind. In those games I just
> turned the deadzones to 0, fiddled with the (usually sole) sensitivity
> slider and the wheel just worked.

> Don't get me wrong, I love this game and it's by far the best modern F1
sim
> I've played, but the controller code sucks relative to other driving
games,
> both old and new.

> Rob

Don Burnett

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Don Burnett » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:18:33

I am running a stock TSW2 with no issues, handles very well.

Don Burnette


> It might help a little if people would say what problems they are having
> instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure what
> some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a Sidewinder
> Precision 2 joystick, a Logitech Rumblepad, and two different Logitech
> FF GP wheels and have not had any problems.  None.  The only thing I can
> think of is that the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
> that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they like.
> Exactly what problem are you having anyway?



> > There are many great games out there, and I'm often amazed at how it's
> > possible to 'make' stuff like that. It's just unbelievable to me,
> maybe
> > you've had this feeling as well. It's like the mystery of the
> lightbulb,
> > multiplied by one hundred. And I don't necessarily *want* to know how
> it's
> > all done, I'm quite happy being in the dark about this. I grew up with
> > videogames, and I've basically seen it all: from Pong to Porsche
> Unleashed
> > (so to speak), and I take my hat of to all the creative geniuses that
> made
> > it all happen. But here's what I don't get: if you're so damn' smart
> that
> > you can create a racing game like eeeeuhm...  well F1 2001 for
> instance (why
> > not), how come you***up the controller settings big time! In my
> mind,
> > fixing such a problem ought to be infinitely more simple to create the
> game
> > itself. And if they are aware of the problem - and I'm sure they are -
> why
> > don't they ***y fix it then!!! In my opinion, there's no excuse for
> this.
> > People pay good money for their stuff, they'd better make sure it
> works
> > properly.

> > Had to get that of my chest...

> > Happy racing,

> > Ice D

Haqsa

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Haqsa » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:27:51

That is not uncommon but also completely avoidable.  It has to do with
the rather non-logical way that ISI does their controller settings, and
also the very inconvenient arrangement of the menus.  I think most
people are setting "Speed Sensitivity" thinking that it is "Steering
Sensitivity", but it's not.  Speed Sensitivity is like the steering hack
in Papyrus games, if you want full linear steering you should turn it
off.  Except in Papyrus games the steering hack affects the low speed
steering ratio, leaving the high speed ratio unchanged, whereas in ISI
games the Speed Sensitivity setting affects the high speed steering
ratio and leaves the low speed ratio unchanged.  The higher the number,
the more it reduces the steering response at high speeds.  It has been
this way with all ISI games going all the way back to SCGT.
Unfortunately it's just not logical to most people, and again the menus
are not well arranged.

With my wheel I am using an X Axis Sensitivity of 20%, X Axis Deadzone
of 0, Speed Sensitivity of 10%, and in the garage menu I usually set the
car to around 20 degrees of steering lock.  Normally I would use fully
linear sensitivity, but in F1 2001 I keep a little speed sensitivity on
because it helps settle the steering down at high speed.  Any more than
10% though and I find myself constantly missing turns.  To set Steering
Sensitivity you have to click through to the advanced screen for your
controller (controller 1, 2, etc.) and set the Axis Sensitivity
(normally X) for that controller.  Generally the more Speed Sensitivity
you use the more X axis (steering) sensitivity you will have to use in
order to maintain some sensitivity at speed.

HTH,
Hal


> it's impossible to keep the car going straight to start with



> > It might help a little if people would say what problems they are
having
> > instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure
what
> > some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a
Sidewinder
> > Precision 2 joystick, a Logitech Rumblepad, and two different
Logitech
> > FF GP wheels and have not had any problems.  None.  The only thing I
can
> > think of is that the menu setup for the controllers is confusing,
and
> > that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they
like.
> > Exactly what problem are you having anyway?



> > > There are many great games out there, and I'm often amazed at how
it's
> > > possible to 'make' stuff like that. It's just unbelievable to me,
> > maybe
> > > you've had this feeling as well. It's like the mystery of the
> > lightbulb,
> > > multiplied by one hundred. And I don't necessarily *want* to know
how
> > it's
> > > all done, I'm quite happy being in the dark about this. I grew up
with
> > > videogames, and I've basically seen it all: from Pong to Porsche
> > Unleashed
> > > (so to speak), and I take my hat of to all the creative geniuses
that
> > made
> > > it all happen. But here's what I don't get: if you're so damn'
smart
> > that
> > > you can create a racing game like eeeeuhm...  well F1 2001 for
> > instance (why
> > > not), how come you***up the controller settings big time! In
my
> > mind,
> > > fixing such a problem ought to be infinitely more simple to create
the
> > game
> > > itself. And if they are aware of the problem - and I'm sure they
are -
> > why
> > > don't they ***y fix it then!!! In my opinion, there's no excuse
for
> > this.
> > > People pay good money for their stuff, they'd better make sure it
> > works
> > > properly.

> > > Had to get that of my chest...

> > > Happy racing,

> > > Ice D

Haqsa

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Haqsa » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:31:46

Well Iain may be right about drivers but I do agree with you about the
menus being, in polite terms, rather non-intuitive.  Please see my reply
to Txl in this same thread, try the settings I suggest, and see if that
helps.  Believe me, the game is a blast once you get it working right.
:-D

Regards,
Hal




> > It might help a little if people would say what problems they are
having
> > instead of just coming in here and ***ing.  I'm still not sure
what
> > some people are complaining about.  I have tried it with a
Sidewinder
> > Precision 2 joystick, a Logitech Rumblepad, and two different
Logitech
> > FF GP wheels and have not had any problems.  None.  The only thing I
can
> > think of is that the menu setup for the controllers is confusing,
and
> > that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they
like.
> > Exactly what problem are you having anyway?

> My problem is:
> the menu setup for the controllers is confusing, and
> that is preventing a lot of people from finding settings that they
like.

> ;-)

> Sorry, but what more do you want? Sensitivity sliders that aren't
*really*
> sensitivity but instead are some kind of magic linearity settings that
only
> a few gurus have figured out, poor documentation of what settings to
use for
> various categories of controllers (joystick, wheel, gamepad, etc.).
Those
> are the problems that I'm having.

> I have driven dozens of games using my LWFF and F1 2001 is the ONLY
game
> where I can't keep the car straight on the straightaways. If I turn
the
> deadzone down to 0 it wanders, if I turn the deadzone up to where it
doesn't
> wander it's not sensitive enough. Not a problem in GPL, N4, RT, SCGT,
CMR2,
> MBTR, RC2000, NFS:PU and others which slip my mind. In those games I
just
> turned the deadzones to 0, fiddled with the (usually sole) sensitivity
> slider and the wheel just worked.

> Don't get me wrong, I love this game and it's by far the best modern
F1 sim
> I've played, but the controller code sucks relative to other driving
games,
> both old and new.

> Rob

Rob Adam

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Rob Adam » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:40:08

I have the same opinion of that solution as I have of the "just go back to
the 2-year old nVidea drivers" idea: every other game works fine with my
LWFF and up to date drivers. It ain't the machine that's broke, it's the
game.

I have managed to fiddle it so it works pretty well but it isn't working as
well as it did for games that just worked right out of the box. I don't mind
spending an hour or so tweaking and tuning, if it works in the end. But it
has to work, and in F1 2001 it hasn't worked yet. Almost, but not quite.


David G Fishe

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by David G Fishe » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:17:03


Seems fine to me. CPR was the same way.

David G Fisher

Ice

F1 2001: what I don't get...

by Ice » Thu, 20 Dec 2001 22:04:58


>  Believe me, the game is a blast once you get it working right.
> :-D

I've read and appreciated all the responds to my post, but I haven't got
time to respond to everyone. The point I tried to make has to do with the
statement above: I'm sure the game is a blast, once you get it working
right. But that's all the more reason to be appalled at some stupid
controller issue, which seems to make the game inaccessible for a lot of
people. For example: I've had a game called Rollcage 2, a nice arcade racer,
but nothing spectacular. Anyway, I never got my pedals to work, and I
could't find a solution for this problem. So I cast the game aside, no big
deal. But that's exactly what I don't want to do with F1 2001, because it's
a good game.

EAsports should take responsibility for issues like this, and solve them (I
really don't care how they do it). Setting up the controller for any race
game should not be some 'enormous hurdle' to take, and definitely shouldn't
require '*** tweaking' of DirectX settings (possibly screwing up other
things in my PC).

I feel it's *their* (EAsports) problem, not *my* problem. But since I've
bought the game, it *is* my problem.

I'll give F1 2001 a try tonight, I'll have my new system then.

Cheers,

Ice D


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