rec.autos.simulators

I did some experimenting this afternoon, a dull, cool and overcast
day....not conducive to outdoors activities.

I connected up my favourite old j/stick, a Gravis Analogue...two axis,
two button.  I still use this for flight sims....it is dead stable,
accurate and a pleasure to use.  Pity they (Gravis) ever did away with
it.

Anyway.....I thought I'd see what driving the GPL cars was like with a
j/s, instead of with my T1.....I expected terrible things, to be honest.

So I went into the Lotus camp and borrowed a F2 car, fired it up and did
a few laps.  The first few allowed me to become familiar with the j/s
operation and after about half a dozen, I was quite getting to like the
experience. I could catch any oversteering tendency a darn sight faster
than with the wheel.  I could push the car through that lovely long
right-hand sweeper making quick little corrections a lot better than with
the wheel.

Imagine my surprise when, after 11 laps, I stopped the run and had a look
at my lap times.  I had set a faster lap in the F2 car (G2 mode) with the
joystick that I had with the wheel!!!

Okay...over to the GP car and out for a run.  Eight laps later, there I
was with a 1'-10.92".......I cut 1/10th.off my previous best!

I see more postings here about the
"dreadful/inaccurate/diabolical/disappointing
steering" than you can poke a stick at. Why? What are these people doing?  
I'm not the fastest, by any means, but I haven't had one thing to
complain about with regard to the steering setup.  What are some people
doing......driving as if they were in NASCAR2 or ICR2 or GP2 or F1RS?!
Sheese.....all I did with the j/s was to put the linear slider to the
full 'non-linear' and calibrate the ***y thing.  That's it!

Now, If *I* can post a reasonable time with a 6 year-old 2-button
joystick, then for Christs' sake, there can't be much wrong with the way
the steering arrangement is set up, now can there?

--
Regards,
---
Bruce.

The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

 I posted a short while ago that I had removed the bungee cord from my
Formula One/Nascar Pro, because I found it unrealistic to receive the same
resistance to applying corrective lock as to turning. When the rear end of
the car is trying to overtake the front, and you correct, you are steering
with the car not against it, hence would receive little resistance.
Similarly understeer situation will leed to light steering.

I also found I improved my lap times by eliminating the resistance, hence
speeding up the corrective action.

It was suggested some friction would be more realistic which I agree with
(there will always be the steering mechanism to provide common resistance
to motion).

I would imagine it should be a lot easier with a wheel providing 270
degress of movement to be more accurate than a short joystick, but I guess
its a feel thing (like F16 pilots develop).

I personally find a wheel to be more fun because it feels more like the
real thing. Its the experience of being there that gives me the buzz, over
finding an unrealistic alternative to achieve better times.

So I guess I'm a bit disappointed with the results of your experiment that
a wheel is potentially a lesser controller for GPL than a joystick.

I don't recall joysticks even equalling wheels in other sims.

I appreciate the point you are making in suggesting that if you can get on
with an old joystick then why are people moaning about their steering
wheels, but can't help feeling that the results of your experiment are that
we need a fast response controller to succeed in GPL.

Whereas I want a sim that is best with a wheel.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Tony

Oh, so do I Tony.  Don't get me wrong on this......a wheel feels far more
realistic and I would prefer to race with the wheel, pedals and gear-
lever.  I was only talking about this very thing with a mate of mine who
found the same thing.  He has a little joystick....like one of the
original Kraft units of about 10 years ago......and he also has a T2
arrangement.  Like me, he also prefers to drive with the 'stick, because
of the feedback (visual/audible....NOT physical!!) but would much prefer
to get the same feeling with the wheel.
We both commented on how it was possible to drive a sim with a 'stick yet
how odd it would feel trying to actually drive a real car using the same
system.

Well, I used to switch between wheel and 'stick when racing in GP2....and
also in ICR1 and ICR2. Some days, if I had been flight-simming, I'd leave
the 'stick plugged in and use it for racing.  In all cases my times were
faster than with a wheel.

Sadly, none other than what I've already made.  I'm not technically
competent in that area to the extent that I can suggest anything.  I also
would be delighted to see a wheel/pedal arrangement that is as "fast" in
its response as that of a joystick.

--
Regards,
---
Bruce.

The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

If I remember correctly, when asked by a r.a.s. reader one of the
Papyrus representitives said that most of the Papyrus "drivers" (and
especially the faster ones), used a stick and pedals combination.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

   I have often wondered if F1 teams etc have toyed with similar ideas.
Like F16 pressure sticks? I could just see the in car shots of
Schumacher lapping the field at Hockenheim whilst sipping a chocolate
milkshake thru a straw :))

I used to think my T2 wheel was a little heavy for very fast
wheel movements when i first got it with GP2 18 months or so ago,
which is why i used the Opposite Lock cheat in Gp2. But then i stopped
playing car sims for nearly a year, and meanwhile started doing some
"hobby" working out at home, and then when i came back to sims 6
months back, i found that it is now a hell of a lot easier to flick
the wheel around very very quickly for big opposite lock corrections
after doubling the strength of my arms/shoulders. (especially useful
for controlling my twitchy setups and powerslides in SODA!!)  It's
also much easier steering a non-powersteer car now too :)
So if you're like me and wouldn't otherwise get off your ***and do
much exercise, then this could be a good excuse:) "why do you work
out, Grant?" "so i can drive my car sims better!" "oh! and here I
thought you had gained a genuine interest in fitness!" :)

That's interesting, Michael.
That's *exactly* what I am using....the joystick for steering/gear
changing and the pedals for accel/braking.

The accuracy of the steering is way better than with a wheel (takes a
while to get used to, though).
--
Regards,
---
Bruce.

The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

l8er
ronny

--
How to get rid of censorship in German game releases
<http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm>

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

There isn't any *** to help joystick users, but as you've found out
it's inherently going to be much faster and easier to flick a joystick from
one extreme to another than it will be to rotate a wheel 270 or so degrees.
You should find that you can go even faster if you set up the stick to run
with a set of pedals.  Many of the guys at Papyrus use this type of setup,
though I prefer a wheel mainly because that's how I'm used to driving my own
car...

- Eric

degrees.

Yeah, watch the poor guys animated arms go berserk. I had to try this
joystick setup and seeing the accelerated arms proved to me once & foreall
this is unrealistic. Even Schummi's arms don't go this fast!

I guess its only a problem for multiplayer - Papyrus will give us the
ability to tune the AI to our own competitiveness for single player - where
using a wheel could be a disadvantage. Perhaps we will need wheel only
leagues?

Cheers

Tony

You're certainly not wrong, Eric.
That is exactly the setup that I have been, and will now be, using.  I
removed the T1 wheel from the equation and inserted the joystick.

Incidentally....one of the good things about the now-defunct Gravis
Analogue is the ability to adjust the stick tension.  Not too many other
sticks have this feature and it certainly helps an awful lot in getting
the "flick-ability" just right in GPL.

--
Regards,
---
Bruce.

The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

:-)
Plenty of planes are flying around with wheels, Ronny!
Wander into the***pit of any major aircraft or, for that matter, even a
Cessna 172.

Joysticks are mainly seen in sailplanes, aerobatics, classics and
military single-seaters.

--
Regards,
---
Bruce.

The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

That's the key thing, IMHO.

I know of quite a few of the best drivers who use either joysticks or
joystick/pedal combinations.

One further thought - I would expect that a wheel / pedal combination
would prove rather less tiring than a joystick (I still rememeber the
blisters I got when I used a joystick <g>). So a joystick may be better
for hotlapping, but maybe wheel / pedal for full distance races?

Cheers,
Richard