rec.autos.simulators

by **Achim Trens** » Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Hi guys,

I changed from a pure joystick (CH Flightstick) to joystick with pedals (CH
Flightstick and CH Pro Pedals), and then from joystick with pedals (CH
Flightstick and CH Pro Pedals) to a wheel with pedals (Thrustmaster GP1 with
CH Pro Pedals).

When I got my pedals first, I found that this was better than with the
joystick alone. But the switch from joystick with pedals to wheel with
pedals hasn't made much difference.

I believe that both solutions can be equally fast. The main difference is
that with a wheel, you can be more precise because of the greater travel,
and with a joystick you can react quicker because of the shorter travel.

The joystick's shortcomings can be overcome to a large extent by non-linear
steering. And on a wheel, you simply have to make greater movements and
hence do additional physical work over the joystick - but that's about it,
IMO.

Achim

>> Sadly, none other than what I've already made. I'm not technically
>> competent in that area to the extent that I can suggest anything. I also
>> would be delighted to see a wheel/pedal arrangement that is as "fast" in
>> its response as that of a joystick.

> Having only ever had an el cheapo Mad Catz wheel (it's just about seen
>its day btw - well over 18 months of excellent service, used just about
>EVERY day for the last 8 months, and possibly the best value for the
>dollar thing I have purchased for the PC), something I noticed when
>testing T2's at shops was how relatively heavy the actual wheel was in
>comparison to my MC. I am sure that to get the same performance out of
>the T2 I would have to REALLY manhandle it! Perhaps a cheap, light wheel
>is the best option ie better control than a stick and comparable ability
>to make quick adjustments. Add to this the ability to adjust tension
>(stiffer for ovals? looser for roads?) and you might just have tommorows
>super wheel. Realistic - maybe not but realistic in that it would be the
>optimum arrangement for sim racing (a sport unto itself). Carbon Fibre
>steering wheels anyone? LOL! Faster than "proper" FF wheels?????????
>Even faster with "proper" FF wheels?????????

by **Bruce Kennewe** » Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Turn his arms "off"!

--
Regards,
---
Bruce.

For the GP legends Historic Motor Racing Club, go to:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

by **Tony Rickar** » Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Referring to driving GPL with a joystick as opposed to a wheel I commented

>> Yeah, watch the poor guys animated arms go berserk.

>Turn his arms "off"!

Bruce, my point is this

GPL represents the most realistic physics model so far.

You are breaking the laws of physics by being able to move from lock to lock
faster than is humanly possible. Doesn't this defeat the object?

Tony

by **Tony Rickar** » Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Assuming the arms are moving in real time, with a joystick the arms move
impossibly fast. Therefore I am assuming this is not possible in real life.
There are some big assumptions I agree. Perhaps my faith in Papyrus
programmers is too great.

Whatever, a wheel has to be more realistic than a joystick. This is
important to me, but each to his own.

I was surprised by how much I like the arms!

Cheers

Tony

by **Trip** » Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Imagine my surprise when, after 11 laps, I stopped the run and had a look
> at my lap times. I had set a faster lap in the F2 car (G2 mode) with the
> joystick that I had with the wheel!!!

That comes as no surprise to me. As much as I like the idea of racing
with a wheel, I can do better with a stick. My best time at the Glen in
Nascar2 is in the mid 1:12's with the stick (Thrustmaster F22 and TQS
for throttle), and in the 1:14's with a wheel.

Maybe it's all the flight sim time... I know I feel pretty much at home
with a joystick, while the wheels all have a slightly "alien" feel to
me. I think I'd do a lot better with a shorter throw wheel... something
that went maybe 150 degrees lock to lock might be about right for me.

Does anyone make an adjustable throw wheel?

Trips

by **Ronald Stoe** » Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> :-)
> Plenty of planes are flying around with wheels, Ronny!
> Wander into the***pit of any major aircraft or, for that matter, even a
> Cessna 172.

> Joysticks are mainly seen in sailplanes, aerobatics, classics and
> military single-seaters.

Yep, ignored that, bad comparison. Still, you can fly a plane with a
wheel
or a joystick, but I never saw a car with a joystick.
Now don't tell me, you saw one in a science fiction movie... 8^)

l8er
ronny

--
How to get rid of censorship in German game releases
<http://www.racesimcentral.net/;

|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Not really.....not in my book, anyway.
Probably because I treat the arms as simply graphical filler. It would
mean little to me if they weren't there at all. I thought that it would
when I first tried this demo.....I turned the arms/wheel off and
thought, "S***! That's a ***y big empty space!" A week or so down
the track (no pun intended) and now I just don't see the space.

Therefore it's immaterial to me whether the arms are moving in real time
or jerk-o-vision......it's simply graphical gloss and has no bearing on
how the car is actually handling.

> Bruce, my point is this

> GPL represents the most realistic physics model so far.

> You are breaking the laws of physics by being able to move from lock to lock
> faster than is humanly possible. Doesn't this defeat the object?

> Tony

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:00:00

:-)
No....not at all. I think it would be rather a strange sensation to
drive a car with a joystick. However, what may seem strange in the real
world comes across as pretty damn good in the virtual world! :-)

> Yep, ignored that, bad comparison. Still, you can fly a plane with a
> wheel
> or a joystick, but I never saw a car with a joystick.
> Now don't tell me, you saw one in a science fiction movie... 8^)

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

by **ymenar** » Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Grrrrr, I was already starting to write about Total Recall ;-)

AFAIK Mercedes (or BMW??) has a car project with some sort of joystick. It
looks like a NHRA wheel I think. Could be interesting.

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

by **Matthew Knutse** » Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > :-)
> > Plenty of planes are flying around with wheels, Ronny!
> > Wander into the***pit of any major aircraft or, for that matter,
> even a
> > Cessna 172.

> > Joysticks are mainly seen in sailplanes, aerobatics, classics and
> > military single-seaters.

> Yep, ignored that, bad comparison. Still, you can fly a plane with a
> wheel
> or a joystick, but I never saw a car with a joystick.
> Now don't tell me, you saw one in a science fiction movie... 8^)

Oh yes there is.......

Saab has got a 9000-series car with a joystick, just like an F16. It's
not for sale yet, and might never be..but it's been tried.
Hell, If I lost my legs, I'd consider it, but otherwise, not likely:-)

The wheel was the best "invention" for a long time, now why would we
want to go back to sticks? Might be favourable among the female drivers,
though<vbg>

Cheers,
Matt

--
Matthew Knutsen

Cheek Racing Cars
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~kareknut/

by **T. Lewi** » Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Volvo has played around with the idea in the interests of safety. As so many
people are injured by hitting the steering wheel in an accident. This was
before air bags were in so many cars. The steering was done with a joystick,
fly by wire, type of arrangment, where the shifter normally was.

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> > There isn't any *** to help joystick users, but as you've found
> out
> > it's inherently going to be much faster and easier to flick a joystick
> from
> > one extreme to another than it will be to rotate a wheel 270 or so
> degrees.

> Yeah, watch the poor guys animated arms go berserk. I had to try this
> joystick setup and seeing the accelerated arms proved to me once & foreall
> this is unrealistic. Even Schummi's arms don't go this fast!

> I guess its only a problem for multiplayer - Papyrus will give us the
> ability to tune the AI to our own competitiveness for single player - where
> using a wheel could be a disadvantage. Perhaps we will need wheel only
> leagues?

I'll put my Mad Catz up against any stickie any day! :)

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Assuming the arms are moving in real time, with a joystick the arms move
> impossibly fast. Therefore I am assuming this is not possible in real life.
> There are some big assumptions I agree. Perhaps my faith in Papyrus
> programmers is too great.

> Whatever, a wheel has to be more realistic than a joystick. This is
> important to me, but each to his own.

Good points here. Looks like we are at the stage where to address
this issue we need Papy, etc to model maximum sensible turn rates of the
front wheels ie if you flick the stick from lock to lock then the actual
wheels only move at a maximum rate.

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:00:00

> Maybe it's all the flight sim time... I know I feel pretty much at home
> with a joystick, while the wheels all have a slightly "alien" feel to
> me. I think I'd do a lot better with a shorter throw wheel... something
> that went maybe 150 degrees lock to lock might be about right for me.

> Does anyone make an adjustable throw wheel?

Just calibrate it that way. I once did this with GP2 but I much
prefer the accuracy that comes with a full lock to lock calibration.

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:00:00

Yes.
I believe that this was dropped, however, when a statistical study
showed that nine-out-of-ten male front-seat occupants injured in an
accident would end up as eunuchs.

> The steering was done with a joystick,
> fly by wire, type of arrangment, where the shifter normally was.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

rec.autos.simulators

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GPL with Joystick......

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