rec.autos.simulators

Well guys, all my joysticks were giving me shit and so on saturday I
headed down to EB here in the UK thinking I would try just one more.
However, temptation got the better of me and I walked (or was that
flew?) out with an FF wheel from Thrustmaster instead, palms already
getting sweaty with anticipation and expectation of exciting things to
come.

Now, my joystick days had been pretty good to me in the past with my
GPLrank in days past being well inside the top fifty though I had let
things lapse since about July last year and hadn't been able to devote
as much time as I had previously to GPL.  Still, when I needed to and
when my joysticks were in good working order I could still cut the
mustard on the old tarmac with the best of 'em.  So, with that in mind,
I thought to myself as I legged it home that this wheel driving wouldn't
really be that much different.

Day 1:

Frantically opened the box pulled out the wheel and immediately realised
my first difficulty.  Don't know how I made the mistake, but I had mis-
read that the wheel provided connections for joystick port or USB.
Unfortunately it was serial and not joystick.  Major no-no using my
serial port as I already had an external modem and didn't fancy
continual swapping of devices, as well as the fact that there would be
no chance of displaying my driving skills online.  So it would have to
be USB.  Trouble was I was still running Win95b and I already was aware
of the temperamentality and darn right flakiness of the USB patch for
this windows incarnation.  So, just to test things out I disconnected
the modem and plugged in the wheel and booted up.  Windows found the
wheel no problem and things were getting exciting again as I popped in
the CD and loaded up the drivers.

Once into windows it was time to calibrate and so into the controllers
applet I nipped, but hey!  What's this?  'Not Connected?'  Duh?  It
found the bugger alright, but now thinks it's not there and no amount of
rechecking connections and turning things off and on would remedy it.
Uninstall time and start again, but this time I'd go the whole hog and
add USB support.  Bum, times moving on and I want to race!  Anyway, same
problem with USB installed.  It finds the wheel but then doesn't think
it's connected.  Aaargh!  What am I doing wrong?  The manual's a waste
of time and so are the readme's.  Also windows is starting to play up
during boot ups - a common symptom of USB on win95 - with protection
errors sprouting up with my computer eventually not wanting to boot at
all, with the same windows protection error displaying each time.  Over
an hour gone and I'm no nearer to trying this out and the inevitable is
starting to loom large.  Yes, a complete install of my system using my
win98 CD.  I had been putting this off to a day when I gave my computer
a major hardware overhaul - new mobo and cpu - but needs must as they
say and I really needed to get this working.

Anyway, suffice it to say that the installation of win98 didn't go
completely smoothly.  It kept telling me I had a previous version of
windows on my system and should run the 98 upgrade instead.  This was
despite fdisk and format of partition C.  In the end I had to fdisk c as
well as my extended partitions of d,e and f.  Don't ask me why, by once
my whole disk had been wiped it was happy.  BTW all useful data etc had
been backed up to a 2nd HD.  At least that went smoothly. :)

Right, we're getting there believe me, though there's been something
like 4 hours since buying the wheel to the point where I once again
connect it to the USB port, boot up and load the drivers for the wheel.
Damn! Once again it's not connected.  What's with this shit?  Anyway, a
bit of messing with the USB ports from inside the case and ensuring that
they're connected to the mobo properly and then turning the wheel on
before booting and this time the wheels 'OK'.  Hurrah!!

Right time to get playing and, for a simple test I first loaded up MBTR
and checked out the feel of things.  First thing I notice is that the
give on the pedals are way too soft.  I just can't feel whether I'm
pressing them or not, but I can at least keep the beast on the track
without too much difficulty so I better load GPL and try the real test.
Mind you, times getting on and I'm starving.  Better eat first.

Start to load GPL and the CD is playing up now so wipe it down, but it
still doesn't want to autorun and my computer crashes when I attempt a
Ctrl-alt-del thinking that removing the cd would guarantee a BSOD.
Don't tell me my GPL cd has had it!  Christ almighty! What next?!
Eventually I have to run setup by clicking on the icon and, with fingers
crossed I watch the percentage bar creep towards 100%.  Success!  Right,
can't be arsed to copy my saved data over the top and so it's into GPL
1.0 for some rip-roaring Lotus, motor action.

After calibrating and playing with the linearity settings I make Monza
the first port of call.  Previous best with joystick of 1:27.4 so, if I
keep it steady with my knowledge of the GPL physics and a sub 1:30
should be in order.  Not likely mate!  First impressions - steering is
smoother, but also more difficult to correct when it starts to go wrong.
And I'm now finding the lack of feel in the pedals a major drawback.  I
realise this after taking the left kink at Della Roggia and then,
expecting my usual braking to take place, find myself swapping ends in
the blink of an eye as the whole balance of the car is everywhere except
in a straight line.  A few more laps.  Several more spins.  I'm having
to baby the Lotus - my personal preference - around every corner.
Having to brake from twice the distance as usual, and still the car is
getting out of shape.  Oversteer is a nightmare and once she starts to
go there's no saving her.  Am I pressing the brake or resting on the
accelerator without realising it?  I remove my trainers.  Better, but
still very, very irratic.  More crashes on each lap, with the occasional
semi-clean one thrown in and I retire for the day with a rather paltry
1:32.8 for a pb and an average clean lap time nearer to the 1:35 mark.
This isn't going according to plan.

Day 2:

I only find time for about an hours practice - still on v1.0 - and
things don't really improve.  What am I doing wrong?  Still more bad
laps than good, plus I can't get comfortable.  Either the wheel's too
far away or the pedals are too close, or vice versa and I'm spending far
too much time worrying about where my feet are.  This has got to be
sorted.  Still, despite no signs that I'm learning anything, I do manage
to improve by nearly a couple of seconds down to 1:30.99, though I'm
definitely an accident waiting to happen.  I've even crashed going along
the straights and I'm still having to tiptoe through the corners where I
used to really attack.  Especially both Lesmos and Parabolica.  If I try
to get the car turned in at any sort of decent speed and the back end
comes around on me.  And even if I manage to catch it I then find the
car overcorrecting in the opposite direction and so spin out that way.
These wheel guys really have my admiration for just keeping it on the
track.

Day 3:  monday

Right, time to fix the feel of the pedals problem.  2 tennis balls, some
wood, a bit of d-i-y and an hour later and I've got something with
plenty of resistance.  Also I copy over the top of GPL the whole of the
original GPL folders that I had backed up and so I've got all my old
setups and settings back.  I notice the brake has still got some slight
travel in it - which will need some extra d-i-y - but, in the meantime I
calibrate that out for now.

This is better, I can now drive with my favourite trainers again and can
really feel things through the pedals.  Shame I'm not showing any
improvement.  The first half hour goes pretty much like the previous 2
days with plenty of unexpected offs and spins and average clean laps in
the 1:34 - 1:35 range.  But then I'm able to string some clean laps
together and reasonably quick by my new standards, with most of them
coming in under 1:32 and including one lap of 1:29.8.  However, it's all
brought to an abrupt end with a major unexpected crash.  I'm getting
better, but still erratic born out of not able to anticipate what's
going to happen next.  Anyway, with new found enthusiasm, I do a quick
shift-r and think to myself that this last stint of 13 odd laps worth of
fuel will have to do as time is short.

Now things are starting to come together.  My cornering is getting more
predictable and I start to notice what's going on and am able to deal
with it before it gets beyond the point of no return.  It's early days
and so trail braking and all those other sophisticated techniques such
as using brake and accelerator at the same time to control the car
through the corners are out of the question, but my times start to
improve.  Consistency is now in the low 1:30s or even in the 1:29s and,
to cap it all, I manage a 1:28.68.  Only 1.2 seconds of my joystick pb.
I'm really chuffed with that, though I'm a long way from the kind of
reliability of driving that means that no other track apart from Monza
has yet been attempted.  I used to be able to really attack these
circuits when joystick driving and could catch almost anything my
overdriving and the physics engine could throw at me, whereas I'm still
being pretty cautious into the turns as, if I go in too deep, I'm
generally toast.  Still, maybe tomorrow eh?  There's no turning back
now.  Even if I am never able to match my old times this is still a
whole lot more fun :)
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

BTW: you could have just gone with the Win98 upgrade... same result.

Jan.
=---

I was thinking exactly the same thing myself.  FF only works in version 1.2
of GPL.  I suspect you are getting the non-FF centring forces from the wheel
Peter.

Cheers

Phil

Nope, not yet.  Wasn't sure if it would suck cpu resources and my poor
old k6-2 450 has trouble doing 36fps as it is.  So I've left it off.

Yes, but didn't have the upgrade disk, only the full disk.  I prefer
things this way.  I do like to wipe my system clean once in a while and
have the full version seems more convenient for this.

--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

It's getting better, though what I have noticed is the new found aches
and pains that manifest themselves after a relatively short amount of
driving.  Especially in my left foot where I'm still consciously trying
to keep it just above the pedal when not using it.  That's why I need
some extra d-i-y so that I can lightly rest it on the brake pedal and
still know that its not actually going to depress it at all.  Joystick
driving was much easier.  Just sit the thing on a flat surface on your
lap and you're away.  Hardly any aches at all.  Wheel and pedals
requires some major setting up in order to get the whole thing feeling
comfortable.  It occurred to me early on that the hotshoes must have
really good wheel/pedal setups - those that they are confident with -
otherwise they would be spending too much time shifting their bodies or
moving their feet about and not concentrating on what's happening on the
screen.

Although that Monza time was good considering the short amount of time
I've had to acclimatise,  I still feel a long learning curve is lying
ahead.  The idea of even attempting the ring for instance is just not
even remotely on the cards.  Despite a pb of 8:05.  Just the thought of
it gives me the willies, big time.  However,  I want to redo my GPLrank
and so I may have to give it a go anyway.

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Ye gods Peter!! You just cannot do that... if you use an FF wheel you've got
to use FF, otherwise it's worse than a normal spring or bungee return one as
it's too heavy to turn using the motor as a return spring. You shouldn't
experience much of a fps hit with GPL, it's pretty efficient in that
respect. A buddy of mine had the exact same system (with a single V2) and he
did alright with his TM-wheel. He upgraded to a V3 to get some more eyecandy
though. Anyway, I can honestly say FF in GPL is worth giving up a few
textures for.

Meanwhile you can reduce the wheel's resistance to movement by turning down
the damping setting of your wheel. Warning, back off too much on that
without turning it on as part of the FF in GPL will make the car's tendency
to "snap" back at you greater.

It is, but you can do the "upgrade" using the full version, just ignore the
warnings and install. Think you might need to boot from a floppy instead of
straight from the CD-Rom to do so though. Unless yours is an OEM version, of
course.

Jan.
=---

Ok, found the damper settings, but also found a box that I can tick
which sets spring forces in non-ff games.  I've ticked that for now.,
though do I also need to turn down the damper setting which is currently
at 100%?

I probably will get around to ff - when I finally upgrade my system -
but I've got most things turned off as it is, even with a v3 2000.
Also, I just want to see how capable I am compared to when I was using a
joystick.  Gonna give it a month's hard practice to see how I compare.
My view is, if I could do it with a joystick then I want to at least get
close with a wheel.

A couple of things I've noticed today though.  Tried a few other tracks
now, the last being Kyalami and the Juksket is a real pain.  Using the
same setup as my old pb of 1:19.01 - a setup gleaned from one of the
hotshoes - and I keep getting perpetual unrecoverable oversteer with the
back end coming round, even though the speeds are no quicker than I was
doing previously with my joystick.

Also, the brakes lockup really heavily.  I watched a replay of my good
joystick lap and, despite the fact that a common braking technique was
to slam the anchors on hard and then just ease off slightly during
downshifts, there was little sign of wheel lockup.  However, with my
wheel I can't get anywhere near full on braking without huge great black
tyre marks all over the road.   It could be that I will need to re-
calibrate, but I've noticed this all along and can't figure out what's
different.

Trouble was, that I had already formatted my C drive and win95 didn't
really exist anymore.  Despite this the error box would pop up only
showing an ok button which, once clicked on would result in end of
installation.  There literally was no getting beyond this point.
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Yes, consummately, I found. I now run about 35% damper setting for all
things non-GPL (0% for GPL with FF turned on).

 Another thing I forgot to say is you will need to adjust your linearity
slider in GPL completely to the left (or nearly so). This is different from
joystick and you will need to change your setups somewhat to accomodate.

What resolution? 800x600 you should be able to have most stuff on when
you're on your own or online. Have you tried George Smiley's mirror
patch? -Big difference.

Warped preposition... you cannot do exactly the same with a wheel as you did
with a joystick, your setups and driving style must change. Whether you end
up faster or not within a month is not a good judge of how you fare with a
wheel, IMO. To acchieve your full potential as a driver and consistency a)
takes longer and b) requires finely tuned FF, again IMO.

Personally, I recently thought I'd hit my limits and any attempt to go
faster was leading me to overdriving. Then a couple of bad online races got
me to try (slightly) different FF settings and now I see a lot of scope
again, but at the same time know it will take me longer than a month to
learn to fully exploit the new feel. Similar to getting used to running a
45/85 differential, took me about 3 months, but at the end I was
consistently faster everywhere.

Like I said, you will need to adjust your linearity slider, change your
setups, your line and your driving style to accomodate. Will take time, but
in the end the immersion is all the greater, especially with FF turned on.

That's strange... it shouldn't do that. Never mind.

Jan.
=---

Did you try to put your pedal unit on top of something? When I had
it on the floor my feet were getting tired too, after I've set
pedals some 7-9 inches higher it became much more comfortable.

Alex
(alexti)

Same trick here.. I cannot drive without my trusty bookfilled cardboardbox
under the pedals, and something (anything) stuck underneath to give a slight
angle. I have been driving a lot of GPL the last months with no problems. I
then went to a GPL LAN meeting and had to drive without my weird pedal setup
and instantly got a hurting left foot... not good for your laptimes ;)

Mikkel

Mind you, the left foot ache is without doubt stemming from the fact
that, because I haven't quite got everything 100% solidly in place,
resulting in still some slight play in the brake pedal, I'm trying to
hold my left foot in a rather awkward position about a quarter of an
inch just above it.  With this in mind I had devised a way of making my
whole pedal rig more solid, so that there will be absolutely no play in
either pedal without some serious pressure.  This should allow me to
rest both feet on the pedals when not using them.  Unfortunately, when I
popped in to my local d-i-y store today to get what I was looking for,
they didn't have anything that met my requirements and so I need to
check elsewhere.  I know what pieces I want and am sure that once I get
them it's going to work.  I just need to know where to get them.
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Cheers, will try them out.

First thing I did was change the linearity.  What am I?  Stoopid or
something?  :)

Only 640x480 which allows me to race with up to a dozen AI opponents
with most eye-candy turned off and the Detail Bias at about 25%.
Believe me, I've played around with these settings way too much in the
past to want to start messing with them again now.  You know, I
certainly did download the mirror patch, and did install it.  However,
not sure whether just copying everything back to way it was would still
allow it to work.

What I was trying to get at was the fact that, because of my previous
abilities and experience, the GPL physics engine shouldn't be able to
throw anything at me that should catch me out.   This should give me a
head start over those that are coming to GPL with a wheel first time,
and therefore should allow me a faster learning curve.   Let's be
honest,  I doubt very much that a complete GPL novice could achieve a
1:28.6 at Monza after just 4 hours of play.  Like I've stated before, my
abilities at GPL with a joystick got to the point where I was always one
step ahead of what the physics engine was going to throw at me.  This
knowledge should hopefully hold me in good stead despite the fact that
I'm having to relearn how to drive.

PS: the setups I used with my joystick and that I'm now using with my
wheel, were ones downloaded from Schubi's site and are, without doubt
created by those who were using steering wheels at the time.

<snip>
--
Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying

No person's opinions can be said to be
more correct than another's, because each is
the sole judge of his or her own experience.

How should I know? -You might be just forgetfull. ;-))

Mirror patch should work (does here after two reinstalls anyway). Continue
to be amazed you're not seeing more performance, but I'm sure you've done
what you can to increase it, so better luck with the upgrade.

I'm very much aware of your prowess as a driver... kinda threw me you
weren't using a wheel all along, actually.

True, but still compressing 3 years of experience into one month is asking a
lot of yourself, IMO. Depends on how much time one spends practising,
naturally.

I'm sure it will.

You're a better man than I am Peter, I can't drive any of those.

Cheers,

Jan.
=---