OT: WELL?

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:48:07

>>> Cra-cra of bullshit may have served you well in creche, but in the big
>>> world, you just sound like a child jumping up and down with not even the
>>> ability to fabricate a reason why Michelin are a bunch of incompetent
>>> ***s.

>>> Come back when you've made up a plausible argument as to why
>>> 1) Button won a reputed million pounds on Monteiro being on the podium
>>> and
>>> 2) Why Trulli qualified with 2 laps worth of fuel on his car.

>>> And if you can't, then you'll just have to accept that these ***s
>>> defrauded 120,000 people out of their money.

>> You're off your trolley!
> All I hear is the kid from the creche with his hands over his ears
> stamping the ground saying - it ain't so it ain't so it ain't so it ain't
> so

that's an echo

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:52:57

>> So what we have here is the words of a commentator spewing out
>> rumour, and statements from Bridgestone consistent with claims Indy 500
>> testing showed no difference in the track - a clear ploy to deceive
>> Michelin perhaps.

> Jesus you're a thick one. The Indy 500 problem was with wear, and after
> they ground the track surface it wasn't a very big deal. The US Grand
> Prix problem was with structural failure of the tire carcass. Completely
> unrelated. How many times must you hear this?

Ok buddy, even though Michelin's statement

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html

points to revisions in the track, you must be right. A bit of a change
makes no big difference in F1 - the margins in F1 are huge, it being such a
crude sport and all, unlike Nascar.

PLONK!

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:59:35

Perhaps. I don't know what they knew. Obviously, you're one of the
people who would stand back and potentially see Michelin runners get killed,
I'm not in that category.

"To suit Michelin's tyre"? - what a lot of bullshit. To suit the fans
and the sport more lile it ferrari boy! :)

1/3 aint bad! :)

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:06:30

Well, now that we're back to the facts -
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

See 2nd paragraph.

No testing and a different surface - lets see anyone in here get it
right building a tyre for that race! Bridgestone were privvy to info about
the resurfaced track - simple fact.

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:14:18

Yes, it is a simple thing -
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html

No testing and a different track. Ferrari would have been in the same
boat without being privvy to Firestone data.

by **Bob** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:49:28

OK, I'll bite on this. I'm not trying to change your mind, just not
willing to let your incorrect reading of my mind go unchallenged.

No, I just believe that any fair solution to "putting on a
show" would have maintained the well earned advantage of the
Bridgestone folks, all of them, including Minardi. Maybe put the
chicane in and penalize the Michelin runners 5 laps. Or mandatory tire
changes every X laps for the Michelin runners. Or mandatory use of the
pit lane for the Michelin runners with an appropriate no passing zone
for safety. The Michelin runners deserved to fight it out amongst
themselves for seventh place (or higher if there were DNFs), they did
not deserve a shot at winning. But the reason the Michelin runners
were at risk was 1. Michelins screwup in making the tire, and 2.
their unwillingness to have a solid backup, and 3. their unwillingness
to scramble and make a sturdy substitute, surely within their
capabilities. Instead, they tried to use a bad situation they created
to blackmail the FIA into changing the rules to give them a shot at
winning (the chicane) that they in no way deserved.

I'm far from a Ferrari supporter, I like underdogs, and am
no fan of Schumacher. My big joy was seeing Jordan and Minardi finish
well. The fact is that Michelins tire was fragile and no doubt fast.
Slowing the circuit would inappropritely penalize Bridgestone for
making a sturdier and no doubt slower tire. Any blame for "damage to
the sport" lies soley with Michelin.

I'm done here, and disavow in advance any further comments you
have on what _I_ believe.

by **Sean Higgin** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:40:12

>> The problem with the Michelin tyres - as has been made abundantly evident
>> for anyone with the ability to read (see AutoSport, this week, as well as
>> Gazetta dello Sport, Thursday last week, Atlas-F1 article) is that
>> Michelin's design of its tyres are at fault - they could test 1 trillion
>> laps at Indy, it would make *** all difference because the actual
>> design of the tyre (as opposed to its manufacture/compound) means it
>> cannot take over 800kilo loads - ther only thing Michelin could have done
>> was used last year's Michelin which, as far as I understand it, were
>> already on the limit (see Ralf's smash last year) - fact is, not only did
>> Michelin know they were in trouble last year, they probably knew they
>> were screwed this year before they even arrived at Indy (explaining why
>> they only had one tyre compound to begin with) - now, do me a favour,
>> since you've been reduced to name-calling, I take it you have nothing
>> further to contribute so - laters..

> Well, now that we're back to the facts -
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> See 2nd paragraph.

> No testing and a different surface - lets see anyone in here get it
> right building a tyre for that race! Bridgestone were privvy to info about
> the resurfaced track - simple fact.

Well then you could say they were going the wrong way so how could they
possibly test a left hand turn. LMAO

--
Sean Higgins

www.higpup.com

My Trans Am Pictures
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Ferrari Pictures
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Marc Collin** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:42:12

You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race
for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their
points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari
wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field "real"
race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an optimal
situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the only team
that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan copped-out
and Minardi reluctantly followed suit.

Marc

>> What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came
>> prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do
>> with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate
>> some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the
>> championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin screwed
>> 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari as they
>> CAME PREPARED. LOL

> I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's
> position?

> Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway.

by **Sean Higgin** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:56:34

They agreed Ferrari, Minardi and Jordan would get points and them (7
michelin teams) not? First I've heard of this. I heard the if they did the
chicane, it would not be an FIA sanctioned event any longer, which means no
points for anyone.

--
Sean Higgins

www.higpup.com

My Trans Am Pictures
http://www.higpup.com/ta
Ferrari Pictures
http://www.higpup.com/Ferrari

> You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race
> for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their
> points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari
> wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field
> "real" race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an
> optimal situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the
> only team that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan
> copped-out and Minardi reluctantly followed suit.

> Marc

>>> What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came
>>> prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do
>>> with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate
>>> some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the
>>> championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin
>>> screwed 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari
>>> as they CAME PREPARED. LOL

>> I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's
>> position?

>> Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway.

by **alex martin** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:31:00

> You all seem to be forgetting that Michelin and their teams agreed to race
> for no points if there was a chicane. Ferrari would still have won their
> points, but the fans could have seen a real race where likely Ferrari
> wouldn't have placed 1st and 2nd on the track. At least a full field
> "real" race would have occurred for the fans and TV audience. Not an
> optimal situation, but a lot better than the alternative. Ferrari was the
> only team that did not agree to that...and then at the last moment Jordan
> copped-out and Minardi reluctantly followed suit.

> Marc

>>> What don't you get about Ferrari and the other Bridgestone runners came
>>> prepared to race. The Michelin teams were not, this has NOTHING to do
>>> with Ferrari's decisions to compromise they're hard work to accommodate
>>> some dolts that can't make tires, who are cleaning up in the
>>> championship. Why would Ferrari want to change anything, Michelin
>>> screwed 7 teams out of potential points, and that is great for Ferrari
>>> as they CAME PREPARED. LOL

>> I wonder what some of the other teams would have done if in Ferrari's
>> position?

>> Mind you, it's ridiculous to ask teams anyway.

Fans didn't come to watch a 'friendly' - it's like buying tickets to the
world cup final and being told it's been changed into a friendly - this was
meant to be a round of the FIA world championship. Were it not - most people
wouldn't have bothered attending anyway.

by **alex martin** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:37:13

>> Once more - it is NOT the compound that is at issue, it is the actual
>> DESIGN of the tyre by Michelin - now, why don't you do as I suggested and
>> do some reading up on the matter, and then, when you have finally
>> understood that there is NOTHING Michelin could have done about this -
>> other than completely re-designing their tyres - that work - and
>> outperform - Bridgestone on 99% of tracks - which would effectively mean
>> surrendering their entire season - and the billions of dollars of
>> investment - to create ONE tyre for ONE race.

>> LAst year, Michelin was already marginal at Indy - this year they went
>> over the hump.

>> It is a simple thing Byron, and I am sure that you'll be able to get it
>> sooner or later.

> Yes, it is a simple thing -
> http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3230/740.html

> No testing and a different track. Ferrari would have been in the same
> boat without being privvy to Firestone data.

Yes, from your very own link:
In a statement released on Tuesday, Michelin admitted its engineers had
greatly underestimated the loads exerted on the rear left tyre through the
corner, hinting that revisions to the regulations, the cars' aerodynamics
and the track surface for 2005 had affected their pre-race calculations.

"The problem was that we under-evaluated the extreme constraints to which
tyres were exposed through Turn 13 in the specific context of 2005,"
confirmed Michelin Competition's Director, Pierre Dupasquier.

Pointing out the unique nature of Turn 13 in Formula One racing, Michelin
said it has now revised its simulation model for banked corners and
requested that testing be allowed at Indianapolis ahead of future Grands
Prix there.
---------------------
In other words, it was NOT the compound it was the DESIGN of the tyre that
was unable to take the loads from the banking - there is NOTHING that
indicates it was the new surface that posed the problem, but THE LOAD
EXERTED ON THE TYRE which is precisely what everyone - and his cousin - has
been telling you for two weeks now. There are NO NEW LOADS EXERTED ON THE
TYRES BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN TRACK SURFACE _ THE LOADS, as MICHELIN POINT
OUT IN YOUR LINK, are because of the OVAL, and NOT because of the SURFACE -
there was and is NOTHING Michelin can do to make a tyre for Indy - they
sacrificed this race knowing that they would have an advantage on ALL OTHER
tracks.

Expect Bridgestone to learn a lesson here. Not Michelin.

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:14:55

All you say here fails to take into account the rules implemented by the
FIA and the failure of the FIA to provide testing. By the time Michelin
worked out they needed an all new tyre it was no doubt too late. Testing
would have averted all of this.

With chicane, I think having all the Bridgestone teams on the front 3
rows plus a stop/go, servable in the first 5 laps say, for the Michelin
teams would have been fair. More than that, like you suggest, and we're deep
back into "farce" territory imo.

"Any blame for "damage to the sport" lies soley with Michelin" - just
rubbish.

You also fail to realise the distinct possibility that Bridgestone were
privvy to data about T13 that Michelin had no access to after resurfacing.

You will be assimilated! :)

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:18:48

Well, at least you're paying attention!

Data is data - general clues eg. stresses on tyres will be greater.
Something like this would be easy to plan for if you knew about it. If not,
where do you start your design plans from?

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:21:04

agreed.

by **Byron Forbe** » Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:44:01

I don't know why you harp on about compound Vs construction - there is
no failure to understand this on my part.

The fact is that the track was resurfaced and is thus slightly
geometrically different and also some sort of change traction and abrasion
wise would be expected.

It could be bumpier which would place more stress as it bounced more.
More traction would stress the entire tyre more as it went thru its
harmonics
Ridges/irregularities in the track could create shredding/tearing

All these possibilities an NO TESTING?????????????

To suggest Michelin decided to be fast everywhere else and totally stuff
up at IMS is rubbish. They can have solid *** tyres if they like, but
need track data b4 making an accurate decision of construction/compound -
simple.