rec.autos.simulators

Hi Folks!

This question has probably been asked many times before but...

What is the best way of dealing with other cars in GPL online?

I'm not the fastest driver online by any means, not the slowest either so I
often end up mid pack... Below is a summary of my racing ethics... Do you
agree or disagree?

1) Faster car behind me... racing for position.

I keep my line at all times, it's up to the car behind to get overtake
properly even if he is faster than me. Once he has pulled out to overtake,
when we reach the braking zone for the next corner, IF he is BESIDE me I
will brake a little early so I can slot in behind him smoothly and maybe get
a tow on the next straight. IF he is only half way up the side of me I brake
as normal but go deep, leaving enough room for us to go through side by
side. IF he hasn't made the move and isn't beside me at all I stick to my
line.

2) Faster car behind me... lapping me.

I keep my line.... same as above except I don't contest the next corner at
all, I just let him through. By this I mean I stay on line on straights, let
him make the move, and either brake early or go wide to let him through on
the next bend as necessary.

(In case anyone is wondering, I DON'T mean that I brake early with other
cars behind me! I ONLY brake early if they are to the side and won't hit me.
If a car is right on my tail I just stay on the racing line... like I said
it's up to them to get past safely and cleanly.)

3) Overtaking slower cars... either for position or backmarkers.

This is what made me think about what I do. I'm coming up to another car,
I'm on his tail exiting a bend, I pull off the line coming out of the bend
to overtake... If I'm clear of him before the next bend I pull back on line
and drive as normal. But what if we are side by side going into the next
bend? If he keeps his line we will crash unless I abort the move and brake
hard to let him through. By getting beside him into the next bend I have put
myself into a postion of great danger... I have the corner, but does he know
it? He can hear me beside him, so what should he do? Cut across me or go
wide so we go side by side through the bend? If he is a backmarker he should
let me through, but what if we are racing? I've said what I would do in
points 1) and 2).

4) Overtaking evenly matched cars for position.

Combination of all of the above... The most important thing is to avoid an
accident.

The reason I don't like the idea of pulling off line to let someone pass is
the unpredictability factor. How many times have you been on someones tail
coming out of a bend, and as you pull out to overtake, they move across as
well 'to let you through'?

What does everyone think? I think it is like the way they used to drive in
1967, letting a rival past in one corner, re-taking a couple of corners
later etc... until one of them gets far enough in front to break away....

From SpeedFreek

(This'll put the cat amongst the pidgeons!)

says...

Agree, let him find a way around you.  If you're tired of the pressure
he's putting on you, or if you're not completely confident he can follow
you cleanly through corners lap after lap, find a convenient STRAIGHT
section of track and make a definitive and obvious move to the inside and
let him go.

I generally follow the same strategy as item 1.  If he's faster, then he
can find a way around me.  Again, if I decided it's the prudent thing to
do, I'll move over, but only if I feel like it.  I certainly don't
overtly block faster drivers, but they'll have to work for the position.  
For instance, at Monza with a fast Lotus or Eagle on my butt, I'll come
out of the Parabolica and scoot to the right, but I will NOT slow down.  
A properly setup Lotus/Eagle can outrun a Brabham on the Monza front
straight.  If they don't make the pass, then they'll have to follow me
around the track again.

It would be REALLY nice if we only got a blue flag (or even a blue flag
with a yellow stripe) if the car behind us is about to lap us.  
Otherwise, we shouldn't see a blue flag at all (just my opinion).

You're faster - it's your job to find a way around him.  You should NOT
expect him to just go belly up on you and let you by.  You should NOT try
passing him in a turn.  You caught him for a reason, and that reason was
most probably that he botched up more than one turn. You don't want to
put yourself in a position to let him take you out in a turn.  You also
don't want to follow too closely or directly behind him.  Analyze his
line (again assuming he will maintain this line throughout the course of
a lap), and find a turn that you can get a good rtun on him.  THEN set
yourself up for that turn on the next lap and blast by him on the
subsequent straight.

--
=========================================================
John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html

John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector
http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html

IGPS (Season 2) Director
http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html

If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's
shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

Hi

Agreed.

Well, I don't agree with your solution described in 2). Basically you
said it yourself in 3). The problem is, the faster car doesn't know
you'll brake early when (s)he is beside you. And that is the problem.
The most important thing is, the  "overtaked" must be predictable for
the "overtaker".

Beside that, there are a lot of tracks (Monaco!) where it is
impossible for an "overtaker" to predict where an "overtaked" will
slow down.

What I do, as "overtaked", is moving offline, in a predictable way. I
leave the racingline open for the "overtaker". If you do it in time,
without slowing down first, the "overtaker" knows what you want to do,
and has plenty of time to make his/her move.

I haven't had an accident yet, this way. (as "overtaked")

OTOH, as "overtaker". the most accidents I had was because the
"overtaked" wasn't predictable. As example, at Watkins Glen, in the
Big Bend, most "overtaked" go wide. If you want to overtake them at
the inside, (because of a better exit in the Loop, I've way more speed
there), they come back to the inside, with an accident as result.

Remco

How can you tell?  For me, it just seems like another car passing me - again!
Usually one of those green things... :)

Eldred

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Think everyone covered your points well. However, one of the biggest things
I feel that people need to pay attention to is the starts.  This is the one
time that everyone is bunched up and right on top of each other.  Give room
and do NOT try and win the race on the first corner and even the first lap.
Get in position and give the tires time to warm up.  This is especially
important considering the horrid job that GPL does at collision detection
and the online collision physics (i.e. I was midpack the other night in a
Cov only WG race....race started, the driver behind me decided to blast his
way to the front or something and ran into me at like 20 to 25 mph.  Even
this slow speed of a crash sent me at least 50 feet in the air.)

I share your thoughts there - I'll pretty much never let someone go if
it's for position, they'll need to work out how to get around.

Here we differ hugely, if someone's lapping me I'll always let them by
as soon as it is safe and convenient to do so. Holding up someone
who's lapping you is a _very_ poor show in my book. Someone may be
able to run much faster than me in clear traffic but be unable to get
by, and meanwhile I'm holding him up and screwing up his race. Letting
someone through is only manners.

Not everyone drives a Brabham and not all the fast guys drive an Eagle
or Lotus. A fast driver in a Coventry could follow a lapped Eagle
forever and a day round Monza, since he's slower on the straights and
can't use his cornering advantage.

It would be easier, but that's the way it was in '67.

Well, you could wait and see if he "maybe" is slow at that point on
the next lap or if maybe he made a mistake and will make one again.
OTOH if that was a rare mistake then this moment may be the only
chance you will get. Basically if you are ahead it's your corner, if
you are behind it's his. If you are both level then you HOLD your line
and don't take him off - and hope he gives the same courtesy to you.
Personally if I was the guy you were passing and you were alongside
and backed out of the pass I would make sure that any other time you
tried to pass I squeezed you mercilessly to see if you would back out
again. If you do, my corner. I don't think anyone should be able to
bully their way into beating someone, or be allowed to get into the
habit of thinking it's okay. For that reason if I'm alongside I'll go
for the pass every time, and if someone turns in and takes me out,
well, we both learned something.

The real problem, IMO, is that people don't know the braking points
for overtaking maneouvres. I bet you know precisely where your brake
point is for Parabolica, but how about if you're squeezed tight over
to the right? Chances are you don't, so you brake too early and find
the other guy sailing in front of you (remember he's on the left and
has the "correct" braking point) or you go way too late, slide wide
and take yourself and your opponent off - YOUR fault. It's an idea to
practice tracks like that, go around in training braking into the
corners from the wrong side or from various positions on the track so
you know exactly when to brake so you stay on the track and tight into
your own side. Setting up look left/right onto easily accessed keys
helps as well - I have them on the steering wheel buttons of my TSW so
all the way into the corner I can keep flicking glances across to my
opponent and confirm if it really is my corner or not! Trouble is, if
we're both level at the braking zone and he/she brakes better than I
do, we're probably gonna crash - by the time we reach turn-in it's
gonna be their corner but I've got nothing left brakes-wise to back
off more and let them go. Then it's praying time :-)

Cheers!
John

says...

If he *is* much faster, he shouldn't have a problem getting around me,
especially on the straights.  How many times have *you* been lapped?  How
many of those times did you know for sure that you were about to be
lapped?  It's not *always* cut and dried, and you can't assume the person
you're trying to pass knows you're the leader.  Some folks have
details turned way down just to run acceptably online.  They may not be
paying much attention to the pit board, or may not be able to notice that
the guy behind them is suddenly a lap down.  If you ask me, that's a lot
of "what-if" scenarios to consider while you're trying to keep one of
these cars on the gray part.

That was just a for instance, since I'm driving one this season.

Like I said, I'm not as interested  in absolute realism as I am in making
the sim a better online experience.  Maybe if they made the blue flag
wave if you're about to be lapped, and be still if there's simply a car
following closely.  Even that would be better than guessing all the time.

--
=========================================================
John Simmons - Redneck Techno-Biker (Zerex12)
http://www.members.home.net/jms1/index.html

John Simmons - Barbarian Diecast Collector
http://members.home.net/jsimm/diecast_index.html

IGPS (Season 2) Director
http://207.104.111.77/igps2/igps2.html

If you want to send me email, go to either of the URL's
shown above & click "Send Me Mail" in the contents frame.
=========================================================

    #1 is right in my book.
    #2 is also right in my book.
    #3 and #4 you have to switch roles in #1 and #2.
    #4 is something you have to understand that that can and will happen from
time to time.  You MUST be prepared to make an unexpected move at all times.
This is one of those things that could use that unexpected move.

    Also, If he/she decides to race side by side for the next two or three
corners... So be it.  Since he isn't going to move,  You should.  Meaning,
either complete the pass or fall back.  Just because you are faster doesn't mean
you MUST pass him.  Even if the second place guy is right on your tail.  Let the
second place guy pass and have him deal with the slower car.  A second place
finish is better then crashing on the last corner of the last lap.

Mike Barlow

--
=========================================
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MikeBa on the TEN network.
Member of R.O.R. 1999
http://w3.ime.net/~marknjess/noflame.html
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If you get a blue flag in a race then you can assume you're being lapped.
Very, very occasionally you will get a warp blue when you are not being lapped
but so infrequently as to be ignored.

The flags are a pretty important.detail to have switched on and don't take too
much fps. It is vital not to block folk who are lapping you.

They do - this is exactly what it means in a race. In practice it is different
and just means that there is a fatser car coming.

Cheers,
Paul

I disagree here. I see letting a lapper through as soon as possible as a prime
directive. It's largely because so many drivers don't get out of the way that
the lappers are now used to pulling off line to overtake. It is also why so many
accidents happen when the lappee actually does the right thing and moves aside.
You usually get the blue well before they are right on top of your gear box
which gives you time to get out of their way before you they are committed to
having to switch lines to pass you. On a straight, you should pull off line at
full tilt and, provided that they have not done the same, ease off the throttle
to let them pass without getting out of their stride. On a corner where you can
run wide safely, do so, but otherwise on exit run inside the racing line hugging
the inside of the corner so that they can take the natural exit and not lose any
speed. If necessary move off the track. Under NO circumstances should a lappe
race the lapper as has often happened to me.
If everyone followed this etiquette then the lapper would never deviate from
his/her line and the only person to lose time would be the lappee - which is how
it should be. There would also be fewer accidents since both parties would know
the form.
It is often the case that, through accidents and the like, that the lapper is
only a little bit faster than the lappee and if lappees continue to drive their
own sweet race, then the lapper can be held up for a long time or else cause an
accident by attempting a crazy manoeuvre born out of frustration. It's only a
pity that GPL doesn't give blue flag infringements a stop/go penalty for
ignoring 4 blues as happens in modern Formula 1.
I say all this from a the point of view of someone who is lapped more often than
he is lapped. However it is so frustrating when people carry on through blue
flags just as if it were a member of the crowd waving support.
Cheers,
Paul

The blue flags being waved in my general direction are usually a good
indication.....

Darren

If he is much faster it will still be a heck of a lot easier to pass
you if you're working with him to make it happen. Chances are if you
force someone to fight for the pass they'll be agitated to get by and
on with the race, not to mention thinking (rightly) that you should
let them by. More than likely you'll both end up in the rails and
losing a barrowload more time.

As for knowing if I'm getting lapped, only once or twice and I soon
realised. When you see the guy behind you showing on the pit board as
a lap down then the leader is coming up on you. There are many ways to
know, and in any case your comment wasn't related to recognising if
the leader was behind you or not, rather to do with how to react once
you've ascertained that it IS him.

Again I agree, but each person view of what is important differs and
in this case Papy's is the definitive one. I'd prefer an "online
racing simulator" which tweaks absolute realism somewhat to make life
easier.

Cheers!
John

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:20:54 +0100, Paul Jones

Is that Mansell's car then....? :-)

Cheers!
John

On Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:46:36 +0100, Paul Jones

Hmmm, you have to let someone pass, you don't have to***up your
own race at the same time.

I will let someone lap me when it is mutually convenient to do so, I
certainly won't back way off, swing offline or take a slower line
around a corner unless it causes me no damage to do so. Slightly
backing out of the throttle on a straight will be enough to let
someone slingshot past, and every circuit has several positions where
this is possible.

No, that's not how it should be. I'm racing too, and while the leader
might be a country mile ahead of second I could be involved in an
"every second counts" struggle to catch the guy in front. No "rules"
are necessary if both people use common-sense and have their wits
about them. If another car is close behind the leader chances are he's
in a fight - let him through quick and let the other guy through at
the same time (if close enough) or very soon afterwards. If there's
no-one behind then hold your line and help him pass somewhere
appropriate where you both lose minimal time - suddenly backing off,
swinging offline or whatever will take both of you out and is not to
be recommended.

Cheers!
John

It's hard to drive behind him for more then 1 lap when you know you've got3
or 4 guys chasing _you_ and you're leading the pack ;o)

Tadej