rec.autos.simulators

Just wanted to comment, besides what an awesome product GPL is, that I am
not getting the hardware results that Alison Hine has described.

My Canopus Pure 3D seems to be able to chew through the graphics with
ease...the framerate hardly varies with almost all options on down through
shutting everything off (which makes things look remarkably like ICR2!!).
Forget software rendering, by the way, for those few who thought it might
actually work.  Single digit framerates on my Millennium II.

The # of AI on the track, however, kills the framerates at an alarming rate.
I have a K6-233, with 64MB SDRAM.  Even with the minimal 5 car field, the
framerate only reaches "adequate" (mid 20's) when there are no other cars in
the vicinity.  Try to actually race and you are quickly approaching single
digits.  The more cars you add slightly reduces the framerate overall, but
means that the framerate will dive to undriveable levels more frequently as
there is simply more opportunity to be near other cars on the track.

Some have suggested that optimization was done between this version and the
final.  I am sure it was, but it would take a complete re-coding to address
this issue in my minimally informed opinion.  But we'll see.

I am concerned for two reasons:

1) If you actually need a P2-350 (with 100MHz bus) to race the way we all
want to (and the way the game is designed and advertised), then we should
all know that before we buy.  Every other driving game requires a threshold
level of processing and graphics power before you hit the "sweet spot," so
GPL will be no different.  We just need to know what it is.  I will buy the
game anyway (even if the final is identical to the warez version), for the
pure pleasure of driving alone on the tracks, bettering my own times.

However, this will put GPL in the same category as CART:PR--fantastic for
single car driving and useless for racing.  CART:PR is useless for racing
because of its utterly incompetent AI, but GPL's super-intelligent AI may
take so much processing power that the result is the same--undriveable.  Of
course, some day, the average computer will be able to run GPL and it will
be a classic.  CART:PR will always be stuck with loser status.  (As a side
note, though, people who have upgraded [Alison Hine, in particular] should
try CART;PR again in single car mode: you might be surprised how well it
works when there is enough processor to hit its sweet spot)

2) At least with some 3dfx cards, the graphics are largely a non-issue.  So
lets not waste huge amounts of time and energy on which graphics options to
turn on and off and focus on what really affects the frame rates--if there
is anything beyond the simple (reminds me of GP2) get a more powerful
processor.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Buy GPL...like you should buy all your other software.

Let us hope that the final version has been seriously tweaked for frame
rates...or that a patch can be released to do the same.  Otherwise, it will
be a shame that so few will enjoy the real benefit of all the physics and
accuracy.

Finally, congratulations to the crew on a job phenomenally well done.  GPL
is the new standard in driving sims.

Marc.

--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins

"Change is inevitable...except from a vending machine."
****************************************************************************

But there is another important issue we all overlook:
the warez version is probably much older then we might think!

Imho the number tells us that the man/women that uploaded the warez
version has probably gotten a old beta version.
i.e. Papyrus must have been working with a faster version of the game.

I simply can NOT believe that a 0.2 version is 90% complete, so if they
use logical numbers they have saved the "under the hood" work for last
!!??

Who'll buy a racing game with which you can't race ????

Bart

Having been involved with GPL for quite a while now, I have the following
comments:

1. My platform throughout the development period was a P1/225MMX with a
Orchid Righteous 3D.

2. You have a multitude of graphic detail that you may turn on or off to
reach a satisfactory fps vs detail compromise.

3. The player physics model, the AI logic, and its associated physics models
are all far more sophisticated than in any other currently available racing
games (and perhaps racing games for some time to come).  The result of this
is you don't get something for nothing - each car you add to the field will
demand AI and graphical system overheads.

Finally, I have no comments about the 0.2.0.0 version.

Mike.

But...the version I have is about 99% complete...I have no idea how old it
really is, but the date on the main executable says 13-8-98.

The game will be quite usable...just not for precision racing.  I am
actually amazed at how well the car handles at only 10-12 fps...but it will
not do for the kind of accuracy-seeking obsessives that many of us are....
I don't think arcade racer types will buy GPL anyway.

Let's just hope that the final is vastly faster and then everyone will be
happy and thrilled...because otherwise the sim. is more than we could ask
for.

Marc.

Possible, isnt the right word ! Sure it possible ! Run it whit 21 Ai and all
details on a high end PC, sure it possible, is it 100% fast ? no it sint, 36
frama rate can and will drop to about 20-25, but it is a LOT of fun anyway !

haha, it wasn`t a week old when it came out....

hehe, they working on this game for a looooong time ! You think they will
rewrite the whole engine or what ?

Take a loot at it ! It looks very finished !

wowowow, STOP ! You can race GPL and it is a LOT of fun, but who coud race
GP2 whit high res on a avarage PC when it came out ??? GPL i much better
 faster ) then GP2 ever was ! GPL is a kick ass sim, and a lot of us
allready fallen love whit it, but i am sure a lot of ppl will change PC or
upgrade, but buying a Celeron 300A isnt that big money, and it wourth it !

T

And??  I am not sure what your point is.

I already said that the graphic details, at least on my set-up, are not an
issue.  The frame rates vary very little by playing with the graphics and
sound.  I can afford 1-2 fps to have almost all the graphics options turned
on...and that's about the extent of the frame rate hit.  It is the AI that
causes a severe problem (on my set-up with the warez build).

I agree the physics are vastly more sophisticated.  That's the whole reason
many of us have been eagarly anticipating GPL for so long.  However, if the
physics are so sophisticated that it requires a P2-350 to process the
calculations or the other choice is to race with only 5 other cars and have
even that too taxing, then the benefit will not be enjoyed by too many
fans...at least for now.  Of course, GP2 runs very well on my computer
now...but I wanted to use it back when I purchased it.....  I don't mind a
frame rate hit for each car on the field...but you would have to start with
about 100 fps to run a full field and still be able to enjoy a frame rate
high enough to enjoy the superior physics.  GPL at 8 fps drives like Need
for Speed II....

Once again, we will see what the final version is like.  I am dearly hoping
that it is a vast improvement over the 0.2.0.0...I just don't know how
realistic it is to expect that.  Apparently you could shed some light on the
subject but did not in your reply.  Could you please?

None needed.

Marc.

The only time I've seen the FPS take a serious hit was when there was
a traffic jam in the pits at the start of a practice session and it
was in the mid ***s for about 30 seconds.  When running with full AI,
the lowest I've seen is about 25fps for very short periods of time (so
I correct what I said in the previous post).

Not sure what the biggest difference in our machines is that could
cause such a large difference in performance, but I'm pretty happy
with what I see so far...

--

Neil Yeatman          
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Dave
DmndDave

We'll see if that changes in the final release...it won't change the fact
that a P2-300 will be better, but the K6-233 may be able to handle more than
it can now.  Max. fps I have seen is mid 20's and drops to single digits
with lots of other cars around.  I believe the indicator on my screen...the
jerkiness proves it to be accurate!!

Marc.

This "beta" was never supplied to the core testers.

I've now got a p133, voodooI card, 32 mb
In training gpl runs at 18 fps, and detail options don't make it slower
or faster.
In a Race I get 5 fps with 19 opp. or just 1 (multi pl. - only against
cpu)
But when I watch the race in the big replay screen, everything runs
great!
And certainly not a 'slideshow'at the start of 19 cars!

BUT I will get a AMD K6 300 within the next 2 weeks!
I expect from papyrus (when I really buy it - ofcourse) that I CAN race
with 19 opponents.
The whole game is about racing, and not training. (graphics is only 2nd
choice)

Otherwise it will be like a Ferrari without fuel OR a Morris Minor with
fuel! :-)

Bart

[...snip...]

Somehow the fps are not (much) affected by the detail you turn on/off!
Isn't this a bug??

Bart

Somehow the fps are not (much) affected by the detail you turn on/off!
Isn't this a bug??

Bart

Isn't it strange that (allmost) nobody thought that a 0.2.0.0 version is
a 99% finished product ? :-)

In 0.2.0.1 they've moved 1 marshall
in 0.3.0.6 they've added some leeves to a tree :-)
etc,

I guess a 0.2.0.0 is an old beta or a joke by papyrus to fool all warez
downloaders :-)

Bart