rec.autos.simulators

Exactly Eric...my original point.  But what I wanted to know was whether the
legitimate version of GPL was going to require a P2-350 to run a full field
of cars or whether a high end Pentium 1 (like my K6-233) class chip would do
it.  I had heard reports both ways, but for me the crucial point was what
processing power was needed to achieve the frame rate sweet spot (I would
think mid 20's or higher) AND allow a full and "proper" race--which is why
we are going to buy GPL.  I am happy to turn down graphics to get realistic
gameplay--it just happens that on my system I did not need to do that.

Could you comment on which CPU's will allow for a full field of cars at mid
20's frame rates, in the final version, assuming a top-flight graphics card?
After being burned so many times, people would like to know what the actual
requirements are as opposed to the minimum requirements...which usually mean
graphics that don't resemble anything on the outside of the box or on the
Web site and in the case of driving controls, accuracy like Test Drive 4
instead of the sophisticated physics model of GPL and 5 cars in the field in
stead of 20.

I know that every system varies, blah, blah, but it is obvious that even the
lamented warez version has very well optimized graphics...allowing a lot of
detail and special effects for a relatively tiny frame hit.  How far have
you geniuses (and I say that completely seriously after seeing the warez
version in action) been able to optimize the AI processor requirements?

Thanks in advance for any information,

Marc.

Our definitions of "on the fly" are different.  ICR2 did this on the
fly, without having to pause, using F-keys to toggle graphics settings.
It was one of the first things I went looking for in GPL and there's no
sign of it.  Maybe it's enabled in a later build.  

As it stands, my framerate doesn't need a lot of fiddling...but they
have all these unused F-keys!  If they're not going to use them, maybe
they could give us a way to map them...for multiplayer text messages
or something... :)

--

Neil Yeatman          
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

....and the whole point of my comment, Marc, was that level of graphics
DOES make a difference, particularly the resolution.
However, I cannot comment from personal experience with regard to this
beta version as, although I have seen it, I have not "driven" it.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Marc Collins wrote

As I would almost at 100% guess....

Taking out the debugging code of the beta builds....

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Merci, Francois!
I shall remember that tip.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

That's unfortunate then, if AI optimization has been achieved but graphics
un- or de- (sic) optimization has also been "included."

Marc.

John:
Your description of watching replays on the Nurburgring raised the
hair on my neck, (there isn't any on my head) as it brought back
memories of watching the Silver Arrow driven by Fangio scream thru the
forest there, with an ungodly howl from that engine with the
desmodromic valves. And Farina's win the year before. I fotoed
Farina's car at Adenau Bridge, and that photo framed is on the wall in
front of me now. I did some laps there while "fighting the Cold War"
in the fifties, and revisited in '92. The concrete is all gone,
replaced by armco. But that ribbon of pavement winding thru the
mountains will ever be a source of fastination for me, and I can't
wait to flog the course when the game goes gold. Altho high
resolutions make my system crash back to Windows. It's a P200 with
Voodoo2 and I can only dream of 1024x768!
Cheers! Sam

Wow, great. ;-)
I "only" saw and heard a W196 Monoposto and the Stirling Moss 300SLR
in Hockenheim recently, but it certainly was a kind of time-machine
experience, especially with the drivers (Jochen Mass)  wearing
old-style clothes and helmets.

Limits for revs and speed of course at the show runs. :-/
Amazingly, according to an old british magazine someone put on  the
net ("Thanks!", if you read this), Mercedes has shown the Mille Miglia
winning 300SLR with Moss and Jenkinson at the 167 British GP at
Silverstone. I thought those cars were gathering dust in the museum
till the 80s.

http://wwwhere.is.it/  ? ;-)

;-)
I know the track in its present state, but the pre-1970 version must
have been very narrow and bumpy, eg. at Wippermann?

Hmmm, AFAIK most of the track used to be concrete in the early days,
but only Karussell and Schwalbenschwanz now have concrete parts.
Of course, double or triple armcos on both sides of the track were
added in 1970, but IMHO not as replacements for concrete walls - at
the track side there used to be only grass, bushes and trees. Or am I
wrong?

--
   _____
 /_______\              .\\ a t t h e a d
I  XT /~~~~                    
I  500\_____       1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro
 \____/\__I_I      http://matthead.home.pages.de/

Hey, whoa, you're making ME jealous now. :-)

I do have to say that the Nurburgring is a totally awesome piece of
work, and I would buy GPL and be delighted even if the Nordschleife
was the only track you could race on. I've done god knows how many
laps now and my sphincter STILL tightens everytime I approach
Anteniusbuche - that is one goddam scary corner. Airborne and sideways
at 170mph on a snaking country road is as mental as it gets.

Cheers!
John

Seconded.

BTW: "Only" in GPL - or on the real thing? Bike or car?  

--
   _____
 /_______\              .\\ a t t h e a d
I  XT /~~~~                    
I  500\_____       1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro
 \____/\__I_I      http://matthead.home.pages.de/

BTW, in earlier post I said "the concrete is gone..,"  There weren't
any walls, the old concete was just the bridge abutments, which were
very solid : ) and VERY close to the racing line! They are all, of
course, armco now. The old pavement was all black except for Carussel
and Schwalbenscwanz, same as now. The hedges and embankments are bad
enough. I was there when Onofre Marimon was killed. In those days, a
momentary error often got one killed. But the scariest thing I have
done lately, other than face the German and Russian Champions in the
Worlds Masters Games, in fencing just ended in August, was to run the
Isle of Man 37 mile mountain course in the wind, rain, and fog on a
fast motorcycle, 750 BMW, in 1992. John has probably been there. A
stone wall next to the road is the norm! Also buildings and other hard
things. Did several laps and then duct-taped my knees together to
steady them!
Sam

That's right, John.  Until a few weeks ago, I ran an AMD K6/200,
overclocked to 75x3=225.  This runs the all-important L2 cache at 75 mhz
instead of 66 mhz, which more than offsets the AMD's inferior floating
point unit, at least in GPL.  

Note that this machine has 512 k of L2 cache - a *critical* requirement
with GPL.  Only Celerons seem to be able to run GPL well without L2
cache.

There seems to be a lot of concern about the hardware necessary to run
GPL, particularly when there are AI cars involved.  I found the K6
machine, with an 8 mb Hercules Thriller, to be quite adequate for solo
training at 640x480 with most detail turned on, except that I kept the
mirrors and lighting effects turned off.  Under these conditions, with
no AI cars, I got 36 fps fairly consistently.

By turning off some of the forward-view textures, I could run about 5 to
8 AI cars and still get 36 fps most of the time.  More than 8 AI cars,
and I'd have to turn off so many textures and so much detail that I'd
find it hard to keep track of my position on the track.

Incidentally, performance with the Thriller was markedly better than
with a Diamond Monster 3D Voodoo 1 card.

I've also run GPL on a variety of other machines, including a p-166,
several P-233's (one with motherboard overclocked to 82 mhz, others at
standard 66 mhz), a K6-200 with 256k L2 cache and with no L2 cache, and
P2's from 266 to 400 mhz.

My conclusion is that GPL can run perfectly well on a Pentium at 166 mhz
or above, or an AMD K6/200 or above, provided that the machine has at
least 256k L2 cache (unless it's a Celeron) and a Rendition card or a
Voodoo card (preferably an 8 mb Rendition 2200 card).  

On Pentium Classics, AMD K6-based machines, and 66 mhz FSB P2's, you
will need to choose a balance of graphics detail, quantity of AI cars,
and frame rate which works for you on your particular computer.  On
these machines, you simply can't have it all.

However, on a P2-350 or better, with an 8mb Herc Thriller or a pair of
SLI'd Voodoo 2's, you can have it all: 36 fps 800x600 with 19 AI cars
and all detail.  At 400 mhz, 1024x768 at 36 fps with 19 AI cars and all
detail is possible.

After using the K6 for the entire beta phase, I got spoiled by running
on some P2's, and recently built my own.  What a luxury!  It's fantastic
to have all that detail, full mirrors, lighting effects, etc., and all
19 AI cars, at 800x600.  But it's not essential to enjoy GPL.

So there may be some cries of dismay - "Darn it, how come I can't run
this state of the art racing sim on my perfectly good 8 mb 486/66??!!"
- but the fact is, in the US, you can build or buy a machine today that
will run GPL beautifully with *everything* turned on for under $1200.  

When has *that* ever happened before in PC racing sim history?  To my
knowledge, Papyrus has never before released a racing sim which, at the
time of its release, could be run with all detail and max frame rate on
hardware generally available at the time.  It took *years* before
hardware was available to run GP2 properly, and elsewhere in this
thread, someone pointed out that MS-CPR also needed more CPU power than
was widely available at the time it was released.

Personally, I'm delighted at the incredible level of detail and realism
that Papyrus has been able to wring out of computers we can buy today,
and I'm very grateful that the computer industry has made such powerful
computers available for so little money.

There are more details about GPL and hardware in my GPL Hardware FAQ at:

  http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/sims/gpl.htm

Alison

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Not!  GPL is quite playable on a P200.  You need to sacrifice graphic
detail and/or AI opponents to get good frame rate, but it is quite
playable.  See related postings from John Wallace and myself in this
thread.

Alison

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