rec.autos.simulators

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

Marc Collin

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Marc Collin » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Except that the whole point of my thread was that graphics options amount to
twiddle.  The only way to achieve any frame rate results is to lower the #
of cars in the field (and to avoid driving anywhere near them on the track
:) ).  That can't be done (nor would we expect or want to) on the fly.

Marc.


>Everyone has their own likes/dislikes.  Some prefer maximum framerate at
>the expense of detail: others prefer graphical quality at the expense of
>smooth refresh. A third group spends time arriving at their blend of
>both.
>And there are those who whinge and moan and forever twiddle with the
>vast range of settings but are never satisfied and probably never will
>be because the term "compromise" is not in their vocabulary.

>I fall into the "compromise" category and I find this very easy to do
>with GPL for one reason:  the graphics settings can be adjusted "on the
>fly".  Hit pause, go into the correct menu screen, make the adjustment
>and back to the race....all in a few seconds. No need to back out
>through several menus and then restart the race....it's a simple and
>flexible procedure that Papyrus have supplied.

>Why is this so good?  Simple: you have chosen a maximum field for
>Monaco.  You have chosen an 800 x 600 resolution and you want maximum
>graphical detail.  However, for the start and perhaps the first couple
>of laps, when there are quite a few cars on screen at the same time, you
>can very quickly (a) drop the res to 640 x 480 and/or (b)uncheck some of
>the boxes in the graphics choices.  This speeds up the framerate for
>that important first lap and, when things settle down and (perhaps!) a
>few cars drop out, you can up the resolution and the graphical details
>again.

>Very simple, very, very effective and surely a great way of attempting
>to satisfy everybodys needs.


>> If by that you mean the real stream of betas was/is faster, then thank
>> goodness!  If GPL has the ability to process a full or near full field of

>--
>Regards,
>Bruce.
>----------
>The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Marc Collin

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Marc Collin » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

It is a K6-233...and there better be a big difference between that and a
P2-300 for Intel's sake.

Marc.


>So a pII-300 or AMD k6 300 will differ a lot !?
>That sounds more like a bug in stead of a feature!!

>Bart


>> but
>> >> means that the framerate will dive to undriveable levels more
frequently
>> as
>> >> there is simply more opportunity to be near other cars on the track.

>> >I had said this in a previous post on another thread:
>> >* Is Alt-F to be believed?  I have a P2-300 with 4 meg V2200 and
>> >  3Dfx Voodoo.  Framerates are *identical* with either card.  FPS
>> >  runs 33-36, never in the 20's, even with full field of AI.

>> >The only time I've seen the FPS take a serious hit was when there was
>> >a traffic jam in the pits at the start of a practice session and it
>> >was in the mid ***s for about 30 seconds.  When running with full AI,
>> >the lowest I've seen is about 25fps for very short periods of time (so
>> >I correct what I said in the previous post).

>> >Not sure what the biggest difference in our machines is that could
>> >cause such a large difference in performance, but I'm pretty happy
>> >with what I see so far...

>> >--

>> >Neil Yeatman
>> >Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Marc Collin

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Marc Collin » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Thanks again for the clarification.  And I really did not want to start a
thread crying about the "features" or performance of a warez version.

My only interest is that the final version will perform as you claim and
that if it didn't, that those of you with access to more legitimate versions
than me please tell us what processor really is required to run a full
field.  You have done that!  Thanks again.

Marc.


>On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:55:04 -0400, "Marc Collins"

>>Just wanted to comment, besides what an awesome product GPL is, that I am
>>not getting the hardware results that Alison Hine has described.

>Well, advice on how to configure and what you are/are not doing can
>wait until people are using legitimate software. Quite apart from the
>oft mentioned morality aspect, without knowing exactly what that
>pre-release was and how it differed from any other version I've tried
>it's impossible to comment.

>I would however like to point out that I can race all 19 AI, in
>640x480, with textures etc at 36fps on my Celeron 300, and could do so
>also on a P225MMX Pentium. Last night I had a fair attempt at a full
>Grand Prix at the Ring (crashed out after 5 laps) with all AI and the
>frame-rate was perfect all through, only a small drop to 20fps or so
>at the start.

>I'd hate to see people worried by warez version horror stories.

>Cheers!
>John

Eric T. Busc

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Eric T. Busc » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

That shows that on your system its the CPU (pipelined floating point
calculations are not the strong point of non-Intel chips) and not the
video card that is the bottleneck.

- Eric


doktor

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by doktor » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Me either...

My guess is that either the "open" beta testers (I think there are about 100
of them) received this version, and one of them leaked it, someone at
Papyrus leaked it, or a *** magazine was sent a preview copy and someone
from their offices leaked it.

But I can safely say that it WAS NOT one of the Core beta-testers (there's 8
of them).. they DID NOT receive this copy.. they received an 8/22 version
(the warez was 8/13).

doktorB
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~drbryan/gpl
For the GPL track files, FAQs (I've got them!), installation help, release
date updates, PC GAMER preview pics, and more!
This week's Poll-of-the-Week: Did you, or didn't you download the WAREZ GPL?
----


>Me neither.


>> No.


>> > So can you tell me WHERE that warez version comes from
>> > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

John Walla

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by John Walla » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:06:20 +1000, Bruce Kennewell


>Everyone has their own likes/dislikes.  Some prefer maximum framerate at
>the expense of detail: others prefer graphical quality at the expense of
>smooth refresh. A third group spends time arriving at their blend of
>both.

I think that if GPL was released and ran perfectly on current systems
it would be a bit of a shame, since it compromises what we can expect
in a few months when today's leading edge hardware is commonplace.

It would be the work of moments to reduce GPL's maximum resolution
down to 640x480 and simply match what GP2, F1RS and CPR offer, and in
that case GPL would run comparably despite the physics and AI. That
the 800, 960 and 1024 modes are still there means that GPL can
continue to look better and better as we upgrade. I currently run GPL
only ever in 640x480 (I'm a frame-rate ***ist), but I do watch
replays in 1024x768 and I know some of the other testers with top end
P2 systems race at 1024x68, and I know that I'm looking forward to
doing that too at some point. It looks incredible at that high res,
and I'm glad that this is an option to us.

Sometimes when watching a replay at the Nurburgring it looks almost
lifelike, with the incredibly crisp graphics at 1024x768, the
light-sourcing and shading on the cars, the road snaking through the
Eifel mountains and the cacophany of engines howling by. I'm probably
not entitled to an unbiased opinion given my association with GPL, but
sometimes it's hard to stop myself getting poetic :-)

Cheers!
John

Pat Dotso

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Pat Dotso » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00


> That shows that on your system its the CPU (pipelined floating point
> calculations are not the strong point of non-Intel chips) and not the
> video card that is the bottleneck.

Does GPL support AMD's 3d-Now (or DX6)?

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Mike Laske

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Mike Laske » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00


>Hey Mike,

>Somehow the fps are not (much) affected by the detail you turn on/off!
>Isn't this a bug??

I really have no idea.  All bets are off with that version.

Mike.

Mike Laske

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Mike Laske » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Marc,

John's already commented to your message and there's nothing that I disagree
with, other than to emphasise the point to _everybody_ here, please do not
go basing any performance, AI or physics opinions on the pre-release build
that is being passed around.  I don't believe I've actually seen the build
that is up on the net, but by all accounts there are some significant
differences between that and the build that followed it (and no sorry, I'm
not permitted to describe the changes so please don't ask!!).

Mike.

Mike Laske

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Mike Laske » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Hi Marc,


>the great graphics and other superlative design features will make GPL the
>most impressive driving sim. ever to be released in my opinion.  Moving the

It _is_ the most impressive driving sim that any of the testers have
experienced, and as I said in another message, I've been involved with GPL
for a good fair while now and I STILL feel as enthusiastic about it as I did
when I first heard about it.  I'm not going to tell you that it's a perfect
flawless game because such a beast doesn't and will never exist, but it's
the closest thing yet to hacking round a real race track.  As a general
comment to folks, if you're willing to put the time and effort into it in
order to learn how to setup and drive the cars, you'll love it.  Having said
that, you've probably played the demo a fair bit and if you can drive that,
you'll be ok - although driving closely amongst the traffic requires never
ending practise!!  :-)

Mike.

David G Fishe

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by David G Fishe » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

I don't know why people are so interested in the origins of the warez beta.
Unfortunately, many games manage to make their way onto a warez site during
the beta stage. I'm actually surprised it took as long as it did before GPL
showed up. When we beta tested MTM2, a beta made it's way to the web and
spread like wildfire. It only takes one person to make it available and no
one will ever figure out who that was.

Dave
DmndDave

-----Original Message-----

Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

>Me either...

>My guess is that either the "open" beta testers (I think there are about
100
>of them) received this version, and one of them leaked it, someone at
>Papyrus leaked it, or a *** magazine was sent a preview copy and someone
>from their offices leaked it.

>But I can safely say that it WAS NOT one of the Core beta-testers (there's
8
>of them).. they DID NOT receive this copy.. they received an 8/22 version
>(the warez was 8/13).

>doktorB
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/~drbryan/gpl
>For the GPL track files, FAQs (I've got them!), installation help, release

(nul

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by (nul » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00




>>I don't want to scaremonger, I'm basing this opinion on the general trend from
>>this newsgroup, but it would seem AMD chips may be at a disadvantage.

>Possibly, but remember that Alison used an AMD chip all through
>testing, in fact until very recently, and I believe her results were
>based upon that.

And please recall that a while ago Intel supposedly tried to put game
publishers under pressure to make excessive use of floating point in
their games in order to shed a bad light on intel's competition
(remember the days when AMD just whaled in pure int performance
compared to intel chips?). I don't see what advantage usage of
floating point would bring: with 32 bits to an int you can achive
sufficient accuracy even with integers. Any professional programmer
caring to comment?

Regards,

Uwe

--
 Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de>
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(nul

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by (nul » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00



>On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:05:06 +0200,


>>So a pII-300 or AMD k6 300 will differ a lot !?
>>That sounds more like a bug in stead of a feature!!

>>Bart

>Why do you feel that the AMD should perform as well as the
>Pentium, with the floating point calculations in GP2?

Whoa! Steady there! If your had any valid point there GP2 on intel
would/should run *much* better than on AMD chips.  Sadly / gladly this
is not the case: GP2 runs like ***and turns into a slide show with
smoke and load of cars displayed on nearly any computer ever produced
in the pc architecture line.

Uwe

--
 Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de>
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66
    Best of Scottish Folk: http://www.racesimcentral.net/~nsg
  >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign:  Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

ymenar

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by ymenar » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Bruce Kennewell wrote

<excellent post snipped>

Ah.. great post Bruce...

No need to uncheck the boxes... Just hit the "Page Up/Page Down" for
higher/lower resolution on the fly !

;-D

- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard!
- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
- Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS
- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Bart-W. van Lit

GPL Framerate Hit Caused by AI, not graphics

by Bart-W. van Lit » Wed, 23 Sep 1998 04:00:00

Well, I think you haven't followed the discussion :-)

People are dissapointent by the performance, and they wonder how old
that beta really is......

Anyway, the REAL beta testers used a totally different (read: BETTER)
version.

We only hope it'll run on our systems!

cheers,

Bart


> I don't know why people are so interested in the origins of the warez beta.
> Unfortunately, many games manage to make their way onto a warez site during
> the beta stage. I'm actually surprised it took as long as it did be


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