rec.autos.simulators

by **Thomas Everet** » Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

Thomas

by **Kenny L** » Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:00:00

In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL adds
the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Also, each
tire is separately modeled in GPL, that's how you can lock up only one tire
entering a turn. Ex. when the car is entering a left hand turn, the sim
will calculate how much your turning the wheel, and then unload the left
front and left rear while loading the right front and right rear, all using
separate calculations based on the suspension settings for each corner of
the car, how fast you are going, the temp of each tire etc., cool. Very
busy game engine. Can't wait for Nascar 3, since I'm a stock car nut.

After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars.

>Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
>as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
>realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
>new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
>or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

>Thomas

by **John Moor** » Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:00:00

well in nontechy techtalk n2 physics is based on a few items like speed,
grip, input force, where gpl is using way more things like each tire
modeled seperately, each suspension seperate, etc etc. For example in n2
the total tire traction for the whole car is computed where in gpl each
tire is seperate and when you turn in a corner the traction available to
each tire changes, you can imagine the difference. I think the total
items modeled went from 6 to 15 or something like that. Each of these
were updated 12 times a second in n2 and now 288 times a second in gpl.
so in simple terms it is simple wayyy more complex.

> Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
> as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
> realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
> new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
> or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

> Thomas

by **Wosc** » Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:00:00

>In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL adds
>the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car.

Just to add to your 3d reactions i believe it also models pitch and roll or
something like that (im not a flight sim guy) which adds some more degrees
of 3d action. They say something like 6 degrees of movement. Each tire can
go forward back left right but if you watch when you get light or airborn
you see that it also "rolls" and same with the whole car, with the example
of reving the motor at stand still, everything is modeled so you have more
degrees or movement. I remember in CPR, you get airborn and the car physics
dont know what to do, they just kinda throw you up and its like all gravity
is lost, and same with rolls (i remember driving the pacecar around and then
cutting it tight and the car would roll and then it would just go crazy)
Well thats my .02 to add to Kenny's post.
Wosco

by **Thomas Everet** » Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:00:00

John,

Where'd you get the 12/288 figure? I'm trying to write up a review
of sorts, so I need to be accurate. Is this stuff in the manual?

Thomas

> well in nontechy techtalk n2 physics is based on a few items like speed,
> grip, input force, where gpl is using way more things like each tire
> modeled seperately, each suspension seperate, etc etc. For example in n2
> the total tire traction for the whole car is computed where in gpl each
> tire is seperate and when you turn in a corner the traction available to
> each tire changes, you can imagine the difference. I think the total
> items modeled went from 6 to 15 or something like that. Each of these
> were updated 12 times a second in n2 and now 288 times a second in gpl.
> so in simple terms it is simple wayyy more complex.

> > Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
> > as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
> > realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
> > new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
> > or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

> > Thomas

by **Thomas Everet** » Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Thanks for the reply, but I'm still a bit confused. What does it mean to
"unload" and "load" the tires?

Thomas.

> In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL
adds
> the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Also,
each
> tire is separately modeled in GPL, that's how you can lock up only one
tire
> entering a turn. Ex. when the car is entering a left hand turn, the sim
> will calculate how much your turning the wheel, and then unload the left
> front and left rear while loading the right front and right rear, all
using
> separate calculations based on the suspension settings for each corner
of
> the car, how fast you are going, the temp of each tire etc., cool. Very
> busy game engine. Can't wait for Nascar 3, since I'm a stock car nut.

> After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars.

> >Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
> >as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
> >realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
> >new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
> >or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

> >Thomas

by **Eldre** » Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:00:00

>After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars.

You ain't just whistling DIXIE, Dixie :)
I've killed myself, other drivers, and even SPECTATORS so many times, I lost
count. Although I'm doing BETTER, I still keep getting punted by that DAMN J.
Rindt...I just about to DELETE him from the game...

Eldred

by **David Ewin** » Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:00:00

> I've killed myself, other drivers, and even SPECTATORS so many times, I lost
> count. Although I'm doing BETTER, I still keep getting punted by that DAMN J.
> Rindt...I just about to DELETE him from the game...

I told you that Jochen Rindt was a menace! (see previous thread - "GPL:
Jochen Rindt is a menace").

Dave Ewing

by **Mark** » Fri, 27 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Thomas, with all due respect, if you don't know what 'loading' or
'unloading' is with respect to tire and suspension dynamics, I'd
suggest you pass on writing any reviews of a sim of GPL's
caliber.

Rgds,
Mark R.

On 25 Nov 1998 19:02:52 GMT, "Thomas Everett"

>John,

>Where'd you get the 12/288 figure? I'm trying to write up a review
>of sorts, so I need to be accurate. Is this stuff in the manual?

>Thomas

>> well in nontechy techtalk n2 physics is based on a few items like speed,
>> grip, input force, where gpl is using way more things like each tire
>> modeled seperately, each suspension seperate, etc etc. For example in n2
>> the total tire traction for the whole car is computed where in gpl each
>> tire is seperate and when you turn in a corner the traction available to
>> each tire changes, you can imagine the difference. I think the total
>> items modeled went from 6 to 15 or something like that. Each of these
>> were updated 12 times a second in n2 and now 288 times a second in gpl.
>> so in simple terms it is simple wayyy more complex.

>> > Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
>> > as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
>> > realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
>> > new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
>> > or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

>> > Thomas

by **Eldre** » Fri, 27 Nov 1998 04:00:00

>> I've killed myself, other drivers, and even SPECTATORS so many times, I
>lost
>> count. Although I'm doing BETTER, I still keep getting punted by that DAMN
>J.
>> Rindt...I just about to DELETE him from the game...

>I told you that Jochen Rindt was a menace! (see previous thread - "GPL:
>Jochen Rindt is a menace").

>Dave Ewing

<g> I remembered the thread, but I couldn't remember who STARTED it... :)

Eldred
...Who finally WON a 6-lap race at Monza, with ten 'reversed-AI' opponents!
Ok, so I would have finished 10th with a full field, but at this point, I don't
CARE!<g> Woo-Hoo!!!

by **Kenny L** » Fri, 27 Nov 1998 04:00:00

when you accelerate, brake, or turn left or right, the weight on each tire
changes. For example, when you hit the brakes going into a turn, the weight
of the car shifts to the front wheels, causing the front of the car to dip.
when you hit the brakes and turn right, the weight transfers forward and to
the left , loading the l/f tire and unloading the r/r tire. when you hit
the gas, the weight transfers back to the rear tires thus loading the rear
tires. you will see the actions and reactions in the front suspension.
Viper Racing has this very cool camera view of just the front suspension,
which illustrates this weight transferring effect oh so well.
try this, find a long sweeping turn, and watch the tire temps change.

>Thanks for the reply, but I'm still a bit confused. What does it mean to
>"unload" and "load" the tires?

>Thomas.

>> In N2, the physics model is only 2 axis, left/right & front/rear. GPL
>adds
>> the up/down axis, which completes the 3D reactions of the car. Also,
>each
>> tire is separately modeled in GPL, that's how you can lock up only one
>tire
>> entering a turn. Ex. when the car is entering a left hand turn, the sim
>> will calculate how much your turning the wheel, and then unload the left
>> front and left rear while loading the right front and right rear, all
>using
>> separate calculations based on the suspension settings for each corner
>of
>> the car, how fast you are going, the temp of each tire etc., cool. Very
>> busy game engine. Can't wait for Nascar 3, since I'm a stock car nut.

>> After a few laps in this sim, I know why they added wings to the cars.

>> >Could someone explain to me (in as non-technical a language
>> >as possible) why Grand Prix Legends is so much more
>> >realistic than any other driving sim? What things does this
>> >new Papyrus engine model that games like Nascar Racing 2
>> >or Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation do not model?

>> >Thomas

by **Russell D. Laughlin Jr** » Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:00:00

How did you reverse the AI opponents? I'm tired of getting my ass kicked
all over the place by Clark?

Russ

by **Eldre** » Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:00:00

>How did you reverse the AI opponents? I'm tired of getting my ass kicked
>all over the place by Clark?

>Russ

>>...Who finally WON a 6-lap race at Monza, with ten 'reversed-AI' opponents!
>>Ok, so I would have finished 10th with a full field, but at this point, I
>don't
>>CARE!<g> Woo-Hoo!!!

Edit the file in the GPL directory called DRIVER.INI
The drivers are listed from 1 to 19. Just renumber them. In other words,
Clark is normally number 1. Just change his number to 19, change the next to
18, etc. When you run a race, you're now selecting the SLOWEST drivers first.
As you get better, you can select more drivers, who will be progressively
faster. I don't remember who originally gave this tip, so I can't give proper
credit, sorry.

Eldred
p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by 17
seconds...YESSSS!<g>

by **Russell D. Laughlin Jr** » Sat, 28 Nov 1998 04:00:00

Don't Rub it in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Laughlin

>>How did you reverse the AI opponents? I'm tired of getting my ass kicked
>>all over the place by Clark?

>>Russ

>>>...Who finally WON a 6-lap race at Monza, with ten 'reversed-AI'
opponents!
>>>Ok, so I would have finished 10th with a full field, but at this point, I
>>don't
>>>CARE!<g> Woo-Hoo!!!

>Edit the file in the GPL directory called DRIVER.INI
>The drivers are listed from 1 to 19. Just renumber them. In other words,
>Clark is normally number 1. Just change his number to 19, change the next
to
>18, etc. When you run a race, you're now selecting the SLOWEST drivers
first.
>As you get better, you can select more drivers, who will be progressively
>faster. I don't remember who originally gave this tip, so I can't give
proper
>credit, sorry.

>Eldred
>p.s. BTW, I just ran a full distance, full damage race yesterday. Won by
17
>seconds...YESSSS!<g>

rec.autos.simulators

GPL's Realism

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GPL's Realism

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GPL's Realism

GPL's Realism

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GPL's Realism

GPL's Realism

GPL's Realism