rec.autos.simulators

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

John Moor

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by John Moor » Sun, 02 May 1999 04:00:00

He didn't say that at all, reread it and think.


> <SNIP>

> >the US has a huge amount of ***'s when compared to the rest of the
> >world. approximately 5-6 more per 100,000. hard to argue with this. i do
> >have a suspicion about these (don't worry - it's not a *** theory),
> >that being there is no distinguishing between a *** act by a baddie or
> a
> >life-saving defensive action by an goodie. for example, a couple of baddies
> >holds up a goodie at gun point. the goodie then blows away thre baddies
> >after being accosted. result: two ***s. the definition of "***,
> by
> >the way, is:

> >a person who kills another.

> >this is very different.

> >if my example holds any water at all, i am glad that the world is rid of
> 5-6
> >more baddies. yes, this freedom does have a cost. if that cost is 1 out of
> >100,000 kids having an accident with daddy's gun - then that is a small
> >price to pay for a better society. chalk it up to natural selection at
> work.
> >a kid that stupid would've pissed on a light socket eventually anyway.

> <SNIP>

> Let me get this straight... You're saying the majority of ***s in this
> country are people defending themselves against bad guys?!?!?!?!?

> What color is the sky in YOUR world?

> Keith (no longer wondering why this country is so f'ed up...)

Eldre

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Eldre » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00


writes:

I've seen 3 out of those 4(never heard of Romper Stomper) and liked them.
However, I have no more desire to kill people now than I did BEFORE I saw them.
 I've also played Doom, Duke Nuke'em, and Starcraft.  I've been known to
listen to heavy metal and 'gansta' rap.  The problem is people who can't
distinguish between a movie(game/song) and REALITY.  They need psychological
counselling, not censorship...

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Paul Jone

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Paul Jone » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00


> that would basically be MY point, johnny-baby:
> freedom of choice allows me to arm myself while at the same time allowing
> you to NOT arm yourself. just don't force me into YOUR limited view of
> things. that would be very conceited.

"Freedom of Choice" is just like "Natural Rights" - see below. Everything must
be tempered. Personally I like the freedom to walk around my country with very
little fear of being shot.

As John said before, "There are no natural rights". Study your David Hume and
you will discover this, if you can't work it out for yourself. The only rights
that anyone has are those that are by "agreement" with the society in which we
live. Societies tend to ban anti-social actions like***, ***, theft etc. -
for example even in the US, you are not actually allowed to kill someone,
crackhead or whatever.

And if no one has a gun no one gets shot, right? That's why the US has so many
more ***s, it's because people are allowed to own guns. Pretty simple
really. Sure we have illegal firearms and even a few legal ones, but we have a
markedly lower *** rate not because we are a peaceable people, but simply
because it's a damn site harder to kill someone without a gun.

I wonder. I know little of this, but I wonder whether the gun lobby is so
vociferous that they drown out the very many silent Americans who object to gun
ownership.
Cheers,
Paul

Mark C Dod

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Mark C Dod » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

Reacting strongly means that your are genuinly concerned which is good. If we could
all harness our anger at things like the recent shooting and direct that anger
towards positive
action then the problem would lessen.

Lets get back to on topic discussion. After all, it is easy to gorget about the
world's problems for a while when trying to get that extra 1/10 th of a second off
the lap record in your favorite sim....



> >Not our kids, State ward kids. We were "Cottage Parents", something akin to
> >Foster Parents. In Australia any "child"over 15 can complain to a state
> >funded
> >social worker abou their parents and get funding to move out of home. The
> >parents crime could simply be to put curfews on their activities or show
> >concern
> >about their choice of friends etc. The basic rights of parents to be parents
> >is
> >being taken away. As for searching an 18 year olds room for weapons or
> >***...that is viewed as basic violation of the kids privacy.

> Mark, I was out of line, and I apologize. I was unaware of the difference
> between US and Australian laws, and I commend the efforts put forth by you and
> your wife to solve a problem that appears to be much worse in my country than
> in yours.

> I deserved your reply, complete with the names you called me. I would have
> reacted exactly as you did were our roles reversed. In my own defense, I have
> an only son who just finished high school, and who might be a victim of the
> problem we're addressing at his college. Thus I reacted strongly to what I
> perceived as parental negligence, which I believe is at the root of the menace.

> I ask your forgiveness. We're all***heads once in a while, and until recently
> I had kept my***headedness on the harmless virtual racetrack.

> Sincerely,
> Trey Behan

Mark C Dod

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Mark C Dod » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

Didn't mention censorship. Just made the point I found them far more disturbing and
I still believe they would do more harm to a easily influenced person with a mental
instability than a game of Doom or Duke Nukem.

Romper Stomper had a different name in the US and UK. It stared Russell Crow and
was about the Skinhead vs the Asian gangs in Australia.



> writes:

> >Natural Born Killers, Resevoir Dogs, Romper Stomper, Clockwork Orange etc.
> >All
> >glorify *** with no balance. One viewing of any of these movies will do
> >mor
> >harm than months of Quake.

> I've seen 3 out of those 4(never heard of Romper Stomper) and liked them.
> However, I have no more desire to kill people now than I did BEFORE I saw them.
>  I've also played Doom, Duke Nuke'em, and Starcraft.  I've been known to
> listen to heavy metal and 'gansta' rap.  The problem is people who can't
> distinguish between a movie(game/song) and REALITY.  They need psychological
> counselling, not censorship...

> __

> Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
> remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Matthew V. Jessic

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Matthew V. Jessic » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

Given the number of car accidents each day all around
the world and also the world wide popularity of racing games,
I'm sure glad no one has yet made the obvious conclusion.... ;)

- Matt

Keith Meye

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Keith Meye » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00

Okay, he says the statistics show 5-6 more ***s per 100,000. Then he
relates a scenario where a bad guy being killed in self defence would still
be called a ***. Then he says that there are 5-6 less bad guys in the
world....

I think that was EXACTLY what he was saying...

Keith


>He didn't say that at all, reread it and think.



>> <SNIP>

>> >the US has a huge amount of ***'s when compared to the rest of the
>> >world. approximately 5-6 more per 100,000. hard to argue with this. i do
>> >have a suspicion about these (don't worry - it's not a ***
theory),
>> >that being there is no distinguishing between a *** act by a baddie
or
>> a
>> >life-saving defensive action by an goodie. for example, a couple of
baddies
>> >holds up a goodie at gun point. the goodie then blows away thre baddies
>> >after being accosted. result: two ***s. the definition of
"***,
>> by
>> >the way, is:

>> >a person who kills another.

>> >this is very different.

>> >if my example holds any water at all, i am glad that the world is rid of
>> 5-6
>> >more baddies. yes, this freedom does have a cost. if that cost is 1 out
of
>> >100,000 kids having an accident with daddy's gun - then that is a small
>> >price to pay for a better society. chalk it up to natural selection at
>> work.
>> >a kid that stupid would've pissed on a light socket eventually anyway.

>> <SNIP>

>> Let me get this straight... You're saying the majority of ***s in
this
>> country are people defending themselves against bad guys?!?!?!?!?

>> What color is the sky in YOUR world?

>> Keith (no longer wondering why this country is so f'ed up...)

David Ewin

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by David Ewin » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


> I wonder. I know little of this, but I wonder whether the gun lobby is so
> vociferous that they drown out the very many silent Americans who object to gun
> ownership.

This is exactly the case, Paul.  The vast majority of Americans favor stricter gun
control, but an unrepresentative number of our fine political representives vote
contrary to these wishes.  The National Rifle Association is one of the (if not
the) most powerful lobbying groups in the USA.  In the state of Missouri, there was
a recent election in which there was a ballot initiative on the topic.  The NRA
outspent the opposition for advertising by some *** amount, yet the people of
the state voted in favor of gun control.  Unfortunately, these issues are rarely
brought before the people directly.

Right at the time of the Columbine High School shooting, the Colorado state
legislature, with the support of the governor,  was about to pass a couple of bills
letting the citizens of the state carry concealed weapons virtually anywhere.  Only
three Republicans in the house thought that it might be unwise to let concealed
weapons into schools and sporting events.  I'm not making this up.

After the shooting, the Republicans withdrew their bills, stating that this wasn't
an appropriate time to discuss these issues.  As Bobby Kennedy said, "If not now,
when?  If not here, where?"

And in another case of incredible synchronicity, the NRA held their annual
convention right here in Denver, Colorado, starting on Saturday.  The one
concession they made in light of the tragedy  was not to have their trade show
where people labeled as "collectors" can sell virtually any type of firearm
(including banned automatic weapons) to anybody without the inconvenience of a
background check.  There was a massive rally in favor of gun control / denouncing
the NRA held on the steps of the capital building and a march to the hotel where
the NRA convention was being held.  The crowd overwhelmingly consisted of  typical
suburban families.

Here's something else for the pro NRA folks to consider:  At the previous high
school massacre in Oregon, the ***age gunman was tackled and disarmed after he ran
out of ammo in his clip.  Unfortunately, his clip held 50 bullets and he was able
to shoot all 50 of them in approximately one minute.  To make hunting more fair for
the deer, many states limit the size of hunter's ammo clips to five bullets. But we
do not offer the same protection for our citizens and children.  Needless to say,
the NRA opposes any legislation limiting the size of an ammo clip.

Dave Ewing

Woodie

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Woodie » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00



>And in another case of incredible synchronicity, the NRA held their annual
>convention right here in Denver, Colorado, starting on Saturday.  The one
>concession they made in light of the tragedy  was not to have their trade
>show where people labeled as "collectors" can sell virtually any type of
firearm
>(including banned automatic weapons) to anybody without the inconvenience of
>a background check.  

It is illegal to own or sell an automatic weapon anywhere, anytime in the
United States of America without the owner and buyer both posessing a special
waiver which is not easy to get.

The NRA also consists of typical suburban families.

50 >bullets and he was able to shoot all 50 of them in approximately one
minute.  

This is complete bullshit.  What weapon was this guy using that used a 50 round
magazine?  Incidently, the last weapon I'm familiar with that used a clip was
in early WWII, anything since that uses a magazine.  You could shoot 50 rounds
in a minute with a revolver.  How about the school shooting where the principal
went to his office, grabbed his legal concealed carry piece and took out the
gunman (gunchild?) before he got a chance to run rampant through the entire
school?  Or the woman who watched her parents be killed in the cafeteria
shooting in Texas knowing that her legal handgun was in her car out in the
parking lot?  Because of the state law, she wasn't allowed to carry it into the
restaurant, so she didn't.  Many people died in a situation where one armed
citizen could have stopped it early, and the means was 30 feet away because she
obeyed the law.

Don McCorkle
Libertarian Motorsports

Steve Ferguso

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Steve Ferguso » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00

: This is complete bullshit.  What weapon was this guy using that used a 50 round
: magazine?  Incidently, the last weapon I'm familiar with that used a clip was
: in early WWII, anything since that uses a magazine.  You could shoot 50 rounds
: in a minute with a revolver.  How about the school shooting where the principal
: went to his office, grabbed his legal concealed carry piece and took out the
: gunman (gunchild?) before he got a chance to run rampant through the entire
: school?  Or the woman who watched her parents be killed in the cafeteria
: shooting in Texas knowing that her legal handgun was in her car out in the
: parking lot?  Because of the state law, she wasn't allowed to carry it into the
: restaurant, so she didn't.  Many people died in a situation where one armed
: citizen could have stopped it early, and the means was 30 feet away because she
: obeyed the law.

This is exactly the logic that leaves all of us outside of the US shaking
our heads in amazement.  You arm your citizens to the teeth to ward off
those one-in-a-million events, thereby increasing the possibilities of
gun-related fatalities due to accidents, domestic abuse, quarrels.  We
can't adequately debate the point because we're coming from a completely
opposite direction.  I would need such a huge paradigm shift before I
could even begin to understand the American mentality.  The two countries
that I have lived in (Canada and Switzerland) are built on social systems
that place the needs of society *above* those of the individual.  America
was formed by revolution, and the influence is apparent in the wording of,
the challenges to, and ultimately the defence of the constitution.  I am
not going to argue right or wrong here, because as I said, my mind-set, a
product of my environemtn, is (I think) radically different.  I would
rather have a gun-free society than to be able to legally carry a firearm
to protect myself from the extremely small chance that I will be the
target of a gunman.  By the same logic, I should be allowed to deploy
heavy weapons on my own car to guard against drunk drivers.  I'll take my
chances that I won't be a victim, because statistics in my countries are
on my side.  Maybe America is past the point of no return?

Stephen

Mark C Dod

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Mark C Dod » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00

I knew there was a reason why I had to overtake that Subaru WRX on the
inside at the local KMART car park! Damn TOCA 2 did it to me.....

> Given the number of car accidents each day all around
> the world and also the world wide popularity of racing games,
> I'm sure glad no one has yet made the obvious conclusion.... ;)

> - Matt

Keith Meye

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Keith Meye » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00

<snip>

Source?

Sorry, but the idea of an untrained person opening fire in a crowded
restaurant to 'defend' me doesn't make me feel any more comfortable...

Keith

Paul Jone

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Paul Jone » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00


> How about the school shooting where the principal
> went to his office, grabbed his legal concealed carry piece and took out the
> gunman (gunchild?) before he got a chance to run rampant through the entire
> school?  Or the woman who watched her parents be killed in the cafeteria
> shooting in Texas knowing that her legal handgun was in her car out in the
> parking lot?  Because of the state law, she wasn't allowed to carry it into the
> restaurant, so she didn't.  Many people died in a situation where one armed
> citizen could have stopped it early, and the means was 30 feet away because she
> obeyed the law.

How about the school shooting that never took place because there weren't any guns
in the society and so the pupil would not have had one and thus the head-teacher
would not have needed one. In Scotland a couple of years ago there was a terrible
incident in a town called Dunblane where a man called Hamilton who owned several
guns through a gun-club went to a local primary school and shot 16 kids and their
teacher. The response by the British government (with the overwhelming support of
the British population) was to completely ban all hand guns of greater than 0.22
calibre whether individually owned or owned in a gun club (ok so the rules were a
bit more complex than that). This response seems rather sensible. Now Britain is
going to do even worse in the Olympics, but did anyone watch the shooting events?
Your response would be exactly the opposite to that of the British government -
"Someone got shot, let's arm everyone!".
Gun owners should be honest first and then argue later. People want guns for many
reasons including hunting, target shooting, macho reasons, gun collections,
enjoyment of the weapons etc. Why don't you all say that? The British gun clubs
were horrified by the Dunblane hand gun bans. They had to use a whole range of
different arguments to those the NRA use because no one could justify gun ownership
for self-defence in a country with such low baseline gun ownership. They protested
that the ban would not affect illegal gun ownership despite the fact that Hamilton
had a legal gun licence. Now a potential mass-***er like Hamilton can not
legally own a hand gun under any circumstances.
I'll be honest. I would be happy if NO ONE IN THE WORLD outside of an army, police
force or those dealing with very dangerous animals was allowed to own a gun of any
description (air rifles, shotguns and cross-bows included). I don't give think that
hunting, target shooting etc have a lot to recommend them and are certainly not
worth the injury of but one child. Hunting with guns is a grossly one-sided sport
where the quarry often belongs an endangered species or is inedible. In particular,
people who hunt European Bears and European Bison in Poland should be thoroughly
ashamed of themselves.
Personally, I like that I live in a society with a low *** rate. I don't think
gun fanaticists in the States should have the right to subject the rest of their
population to a high *** rate. Still, it's not my country, so it's not my choice
(altough I gather that it has a very marked negative effect on your tourist
industry - you only need a handful of Brits killed in Florida before others start
to think twice about visiting). We seldom see firearms in this country, even our
police don't routinely carry them. I've never held a real handgun and when I visit
other countries and see armed police, it shocks me to think that cop could so
easily kill someone. There's a lot wrong with this country, but in this one area we
have it completely right.
Cheers,
Paul
Paul Jone

(really) *VERY* IMPORTANT: PC Games are 100% positive CAMPAIGN

by Paul Jone » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00

It's easy to blame parents. I have 2 kids who are generally very well behaved
(except with us :-) ). This is not because we are particulary good or strict
parents. It is because these little spirits are usually good little spirits. I have
seen many ***y-minded and often downright evil little spirits, and I wonder to
myself how on earth the parents cope. Personalities are born and not made. You can
guide them but not mould them.
Cheers,
Paul


> >I have an even beter suggession lets blame the comms. or how about the
> >democrats; republicans, liberals. do you like placing the blame? this is
> >completely rediculus the blame if any is on the american society

> Sounds as though you're disagreeing with me, and then agreeing with me. Either
> way, we have a serious situation on our hands. I wasn't "placing blame;" I was
> establishing RESPONSIBILITY for this tragic nonsense.

> I happen to be around quite a few parents and their children every day. I've
> wondered for the past few years how these parents can idly stand by and let
> their children run riot without any correction or supervision whatsoever. The
> mystery was cleared up when I heard a parent utter the most ridiculous
> philosophy imaginable: "They're little spirits, and shouldn't be inhibited in
> any way." Well, spirits come in all stripes, and some are downright evil unless
> taught to respect the "spirits" with whom they share the world. Hell, even
> puppies are trained not to pee on the carpet.

> To nudge this thread back on topic, we stand to lose our rights to uncensored
> media and video games (and to own firearms, if that's your thing) if idiots are
> going to use them as re-enforcement of their unchecked ***s on society.

> It all starts with parents' obligation to RAISE their kids---not just allow
> them to reach ***hood  with the mentality of children.

> Back to my Lotus,
> Trey Behan


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