rec.autos.simulators

> Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> blame them on other computers.

> I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS, and
> I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I
have
> the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all
tremors
> from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps
Allison
> had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my
dampening
> and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I leave
> it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
> course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even worse
> than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.

> I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has
> to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.

> Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
> y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
the
> shortcomings of the others.

> We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
> who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
gathered
> the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a
> few from TV if I told all the names).

> It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection is
> all :)

> Cheers,

> Jason "Shumi" Murray
> Director of Marketing & Business Development
> PDPI

> > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to their
> > ***y FFB wheel?!?!?!?!  It would solve the problem of looking for an
> > adequate wheel dead stop.  No one would have to look further.

> > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which is
a
> > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, weak
> FFB
> > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title.  In addition,
> the
> > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both
> ends
> > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at both
> > ends of the wheel.  This scrunches the already marginal resolution of
the
> > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an even
> > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a tight
> > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like tight
> > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)

> > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as
usual,
> > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT Labs
> > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces in
> > titles like GPL.  The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to be
> > exactly what is happening.

> > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at
all.
> > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my Saitek
R4
> > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel.  I used
a
> > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly not
> > overwhelming forces (I prefer that).  The Saitek (MS-based) wheel would
> get
> > a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high.

> > I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have to
> > adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB
> that
> > I had with the Saitek!!!!!!  This will give people an indication of just
> how
> > weak the FFB on this wheel really is.  (I also noticed on Allison's site
> > that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too).

> > When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillates
wildly
> > in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn.  I have tried no
> > damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and
high
> > latency.  No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating.  The
> > only way to eliminate the oscillation is to turn down (adjust
numerically
> > upward) the torque setting until there is a complete lack of subtle FFB
in
> > GPL.  Then, you can control the oscillation.

> > I am begging people who are GPL and Ferrari wheel users to tell me that
> your
> > wheel doesn't do this!!  If you are using lower torque settings, are you
> > feeling any subtle FFB?  Have you ever used a good wheel to know what
you
> > are missing?  Can you get your wheel to operate "normally" (forget
> > subtleties, just without wild oscillating) at a setting of 70 for
torque?

> > Unfortunately, I know of no other titles that allow for the direct
> > manipulation of FFB the way GPL does.  I get weak FFB compared to my
> > previous wheel in every title even though I have FFB set at 100% with
this
> > wheel instead of 50% with the Saitek.  At 100%, and with the FFB set at
> 100%
> > in Rally Championship, the Saitek would have vibrated itself loose from
my
> > desk just from the idle shake programmed into that game.  With the
> Ferrari,
> > you can barely detect that there is an idle shake present.  In N3/NL, if
> you
> > turn off the centring spring, you feel almost nothing that could be
> > described as FFB.  Two wheels in a row...everyone (including Guillemot
> tech.
> > support) told me I must have a defective wheel, so I exchanged it.
> > Identical lack of FFB with the second wheel (the later release).

> > Help me out here with information folks, please.  PLEASE!!!

> > The thought of those Logitech pedals and losing my real shifter is
giving
> me
> > the shakes :)

> > Marc.

> > --

> > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > blame them on other computers.

>   I've been following the Ferrari wheel feedback with great interest, and
> now your comments as well. The main reason the Ferrari wheel attracts me
is
> the analog paddle support for throttle and brakes.  I'm a paraplegic, and
as
> you might guess, pedals hold no interest for me at all. :) I am currently
> using a Thrustmaster Charger wheel, which has reawakened a passion for sim
> racing I long thought dead. GPL is SO much more playable with a wheel over
a
> joystick, and the subtle play of throttle and brake I can make now is
simply
> incomparable.

>   My question to you and PDPI then is do you plan on supporting analog
> paddles for this purpose? I would buy the Wingman FF in a heartbeat if it
> weren't for this feature. I don't want digital paddles - I don't intend to
> use them for shifting. I can use buttons for that. I would love to see an
> option for getting those analog paddles on a premium wheel. Will PDPI be
the
> answer to my prayers? Please? :)

> If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make
them
> more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but strong
> feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim)
> and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent
> paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler,
> you'll certainly get my sale.

> The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my
> books.  We have already heard that they work well for people with leg
> disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind.  They
> must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them
> (other than the aforementioned).

> On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention to
> her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and
> torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel.  Do
you
> think it's possible that there is that much variation between units??
That
> Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks
> (literally).   I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said
> theirs are fine??  And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong
> forces, just the subtle ones.  It seems backwards and the only explanation
> is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models...  What
do
> you think?

> Marc.

> "Shumi" <coordina...@rs2league.com> wrote in message
> news:hvTh4.18420$A5.308817@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
> > It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).

> > I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS,
and
> > I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I
> have
> > the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all
> tremors
> > from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps
> Allison
> > had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my
> dampening
> > and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I
leave
> > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
> > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even
worse
> > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.

> > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what
has
> > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.

> > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel
for
> > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
> the
> > shortcomings of the others.

> > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the
guy
> > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
> gathered
> > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize
a
> > few from TV if I told all the names).

> > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection
is
> > all :)

> > Cheers,

> > Jason "Shumi" Murray
> > Director of Marketing & Business Development
> > PDPI

> > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:MDRh4.299$RY1.30853@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to their
> > > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?!  It would solve the problem of looking for an
> > > adequate wheel dead stop.  No one would have to look further.

> > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which
is
> a
> > > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL,
weak
> > FFB
> > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title.  In
addition,
> > the
> > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both
> > ends
> > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at
both
> > > ends of the wheel.  This scrunches the already marginal resolution of
> the
> > > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an
even
> > > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a
tight
> > > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like
tight
> > > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)

> > > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as
> usual,
> > > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT
Labs
> > > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces
in
> > > titles like GPL.  The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to
be
> > > exactly what is happening.

> > > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at
> all.
> > > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my
Saitek
> R4
> > > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel.  I
used
> a
> > > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly
not
> > > overwhelming forces (I prefer that).  The Saitek (MS-based) wheel
would
> > get
> > > a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high.

> > > I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have
to
> > > adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB
> > that
> > > I had with the Saitek!!!!!!  This will give people an indication of
just
> > how
> > > weak the FFB on this wheel really is.  (I also noticed on Allison's
site
> > > that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too).

> > > When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillates
> wildly
> > > in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn.  I have tried no
> > > damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and
> high
> > > latency.  No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating.
The
> > > only way

> First I will go into resolution. We have EXPONENTIALLY higher resolution
> that ANY controller on the market (that part is already developed and
> completed). I'm not going to go into numbers until we release the
> controller[s] so please be patient with this.

> A Shifter WILL be present, and the design (mechanical and ergonomics) will
> be scrutinized emphatically.

> The paddles.... I am a racing sim fanatic myself, and I share in the
disgust
> for many wheels out there in this area. Rest assured that the paddles will
> NOT be overlooked, and they will be scrutinized and tested by a wide
number
> of people to ensure that it is not only acceptable... but intuitive.

> As for the forces.... we have the ability to crank the forces up quite a
bit
> (we do things a bit differently than the others ;]), and the range of
forces
> that will be available will be considerably higher than current
> implementation (Immersion is talking with us regarding our new revelations
> in FF). We ARE NOT simply going to make it strong and leave it there. "I"
> too want those subtle effects to be felt, and we will not release it until
> such time as we (and I) are satisfied with the end result. We will also be
> exploring "tweaking" the .ifr codes in games to improve FF effects all
> around, and particularly with our wheel. We do not have the position of
> "Simply build it, and they will come." We are Sim fanatics... love sim
> racing, and want to build a wheel that WE OURSELVES want to use. NOTHING
> will be overlooked (We have attained the right crew already from around
the
> world to ensure this will happen).

> Furthermore.... we will be giving back to the community on an
unprecedented
> level in many forms. I again cannot go into details at this time... but
rest
> assured we will not leave you at the alter after sale of the wheel.
SERVICE
> isn't our middle name... it's our FIRST NAME. Of course the  best defense
is
> a good offense (meaning... we want to build a wheel that will not break...
> so that our service department has only the Maytag man sitting at his
desk).
> Service is one thing... but the service department is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE
if
> they are not needed at all. Some service departments seem to be good...
but
> I suspect it's through lots of practice (ala Thrustmaster last year).

> As I said before.... we will also treat every review of the item as a beta
> test after the fact. If we missed something for some unknown reason... we
> will fix it immediately and make kits available to current owners to
ensure
> that they are not "penalized for buying early and being the guinea pigs".

> As for the price... we will not build it if we cannot find a way to make
it
> for under $200.00 on the store shelves. We will explore ways to keep it
> under 200 bucks whilst not compromising ANY quality or functionability.

> Also... one need only look at our current software (Beta Versions) on the
L4
> to get a sneak peek at what we are going to do. L4 owners can combine
> multiple devices plugged into multiple ports (USB, gameport, serial, etc.)
> and make them one in the game. This allows us a "add-on" capability as
time
> goes by, and you will not have to replace the whole darned thing everytime
> we come out with something new.

> Our profiler WILL NOT be a part of our drivers. In fact... the profiler
will
> be completely separate from the drivers which allows more functionability
> and less problems in the long run. You can bank on the fact that our
> Software included will be better than Logi's.... we know what you want
> because we are listening closely to you.

> I hope this answers some of your questions, and I hope that I was not too
> vague.

> Cheers,

> Jason "Shumi" Murray
> Director of Marketing & Business Development
> PDPI

> Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:jd_h4.497$RY1.47891@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Any idea when????  This sounds very exciting.  Of course, remember that
> some
> > of us are on a budget, too.  The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian
> (that's
> > about $110 U.S.).

> > If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make
> them
> > more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but
strong
> > feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you
claim)
> > and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent
> > paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler,
> > you'll certainly get my sale.

> > The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my
> > books.  We have already heard that they work well for people with leg
> > disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind.
They
> > must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use
them
> > (other than the aforementioned).

> > On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention
to
> > her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and
> > torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel.  Do
> you
> > think it's possible that there is that much variation between units??
> That
> > Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks
> > (literally).   I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said
> > theirs are fine??  And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong
> > forces, just the subtle ones.  It seems backwards and the only
explanation
> > is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> > different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models...
What
> do
> > you think?

> > Marc.

> > "Shumi" <coordina...@rs2league.com> wrote in message
> > news:hvTh4.18420$A5.308817@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
> > > It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).

> > > I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS,
> and
> > > I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself).
I
> > have
> > > the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all
> > tremors
> > > from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps
> > Allison
> > > had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my
> > dampening
> > > and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I
> leave
> > > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
> > > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even
> worse
> > > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.

> > > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> > > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what
> has
> > > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.

> > > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel
> for
> > > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know
ALL
> > the
> > > shortcomings of the others.

> > > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the
> guy
> > > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
> > gathered
> > > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might
recognize
> a
> > > few from TV if I told all the names).

> > > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection
> is
> > > all :)

> > > Cheers,

> > > Jason "Shumi" Murray
> > > Director of Marketing & Business Development
> > > PDPI

> > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:MDRh4.299$RY1.30853@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to
their
> > > > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?!  It would solve the problem of looking for
an
> > > > adequate wheel dead stop.  No one would have to look further.

> > > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which
> is
> > a
> > > > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL,
> weak
> > > FFB
> > > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title.  In
> addition,
> > > the
> > > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at
both
> > > ends
> > > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at
> both
> > > > ends of the wheel.  This scrunches the already marginal resolution
of
> > the
> > > > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an
> even
> > > > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a
> tight
> > > > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like
> tight
> > > > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)

> > > > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as
> > usual,
> > > > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT
> Labs
> > > > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle
forces
> in
> > > > titles like GPL.  The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems
to
> be
> > > > exactly what is happening.

> > > > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work

> >It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).

> They are not all 'pathertically' weak. And you see, you can't say that
> unless you've tested all of them. We both know that one sample isn't
> indicative of a product line. To make my upcoming 'shoot-out' review fair,
> I've asked owners of Ferrari and Force RS wheels to email me with brief
> comments. A few of them were from owners of both the LWFF and the Ferrari
> wheel, and the consensus was that the Ferrari had MUCH stronger FF. There
> may have been things that some liked better about the LWFF, but it wasn't
> the strength of FF. With my test unit, the effects in Midtown Madness for
> example, are so strong that I have to run the force at less than 100% or
my
> table shakes so badly that things fall down. And yes it's a strong table
and
> also yes, I still get subtle FF effects. In SCGT I had to turn down the FF
> because (at strong settings) running over curbs actually yanks the wheel
out
> of my hands and pulls my onto the grass, which is not realistic at all.

> >I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> >association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what
has
> >to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.

> Now, why is it technically PATHETIC? It's quite smooth, has strong FF,
good
> resolution and goes where you point it, and it has a very decent set of
> pedals. The wheel rim is very comfortable, it has excellent paddles, added
> levers for gas and brake,  and a very nice stick shifter. (and it looks
> good, too) From the feedback I've been getting (and one main reason for
the
> shoot-out), drivers are caring less about the technical aspects of the
wheel
> and are more concerned that it just plain works well. It doesn't matter
how
> it gets there, just that it does.

> >Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel
for
> >y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
the
> >shortcomings of the others.

> It's easy to know the shortcomings of the others, but will you know the
> shortcomings of yours? You've got to market your product in a competitive
> price range. That means compromises. If price were no object they'd all
have
> ballbearings on the steering shaft and pedals. And a buck's worth of extra
> weight in the pedal base could be ten bucks extra for shipping each unit,
> passed along to the customer (gotta think of everything). Also keep in
mind
> that no matter how good your wheel turns out, you won't please everyone,
and
> sooner or later it'll be your product on this side of this post.  I
> certainly hope your new wheel is great, but I've gotta say, "show me".

> >We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the
guy
> >who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
gathered
> >the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize
a
> >few from TV if I told all the names).

> There's still time for me to make the review a 3-way shoot-out  ;)   Got
an
> extra beta?

> I'm not saying here that the Ferrari wheel is perfect, or that it's the
best
> wheel available. But I'd be happy with it. I actually hope the Act Labs
> wheel is even better. If if it is, I'll come right out and say so in the
> review, and I'll even buy one. It doens't matter to me which wheel I buy
for
> myself. It'll be the one I like the best.

> A final note on tech support. Guillmot's tech support is average by
today's
> standards, not terrible. Their forum is not tech support, and they even
say
> so (although I think it should be). Marc did get his replacement wheel,
and
> I got one quick response from emailing them, and 2 no replies.  Not as bad
> as I got from Diamond (before S3  bought them) or as bad as MS. But of
> course, no way near as good as Act Labs, who seems to be a shining example
> of what tech support could/should be.
> Marc, get rid of your Ferrari wheel. At this point there is no way you
will
> be happy with it even with a perfect replacement. After what you've been
> through its normal.  You obviously like the Saitek wheel, so why not just
> stick with it or buy a new one and save yourself all this unfortunate
grief.
> Don't put yourself through this. One wheel can't satisfy everyone and the
> Ferrari just isn't for you. That doesn't mean its bad,  its just not what
> you want. It doesn't mean that one of us is "crazy", just different.  Hey,
> to some guys a big, blue Elvis on velvet is art. I sure don't agree, but
it
> doesn't mean I'm crazy.

> Slot

> First I will go into resolution. We have EXPONENTIALLY higher resolution
> that ANY controller on the market (that part is already developed and
> completed). I'm not going to go into numbers until we release the
> controller[s] so please be patient with this.

> A Shifter WILL be present, and the design (mechanical and ergonomics) will
> be scrutinized emphatically.

> The paddles.... I am a racing sim fanatic myself, and I share in the
disgust
> for many wheels out there in this area. Rest assured that the paddles will
> NOT be overlooked, and they will be scrutinized and tested by a wide
number
> of people to ensure that it is not only acceptable... but intuitive.

> As for the forces.... we have the ability to crank the forces up quite a
bit
> (we do things a bit differently than the others ;]), and the range of
forces
> that will be available will be considerably higher than current
> implementation (Immersion is talking with us regarding our new revelations
> in FF). We ARE NOT simply going to make it strong and leave it there. "I"
> too want those subtle effects to be felt, and we will not release it until
> such time as we (and I) are satisfied with the end result. We will also be
> exploring "tweaking" the .ifr codes in games to improve FF effects all
> around, and particularly with our wheel. We do not have the position of
> "Simply build it, and they will come." We are Sim fanatics... love sim
> racing, and want to build a wheel that WE OURSELVES want to use. NOTHING
> will be overlooked (We have attained the right crew already from around
the
> world to ensure this will happen).

> Furthermore.... we will be giving back to the community on an
unprecedented
> level in many forms. I again cannot go into details at this time... but
rest
> assured we will not leave you at the alter after sale of the wheel.
SERVICE
> isn't our middle name... it's our FIRST NAME. Of course the  best defense
is
> a good offense (meaning... we want to build a wheel that will not break...
> so that our service department has only the Maytag man sitting at his
desk).
> Service is one thing... but the service department is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE
if
> they are not needed at all. Some service departments seem to be good...
but
> I suspect it's through lots of practice (ala Thrustmaster last year).

> As I said before.... we will also treat every review of the item as a beta
> test after the fact. If we missed something for some unknown reason... we
> will fix it immediately and make kits available to current owners to
ensure
> that they are not "penalized for buying early and being the guinea pigs".

> As for the price... we will not build it if we cannot find a way to make
it
> for under $200.00 on the store shelves. We will explore ways to keep it
> under 200 bucks whilst not compromising ANY quality or functionability.

> Also... one need only look at our current software (Beta Versions) on the
L4
> to get a sneak peek at what we are going to do. L4 owners can combine
> multiple devices plugged into multiple ports (USB, gameport, serial, etc.)
> and make them one in the game. This allows us a "add-on" capability as
time
> goes by, and you will not have to replace the whole darned thing everytime
> we come out with something new.

> Our profiler WILL NOT be a part of our drivers. In fact... the profiler
will
> be completely separate from the drivers which allows more functionability
> and less problems in the long run. You can bank on the fact that our
> Software included will be better than Logi's.... we know what you want
> because we are listening closely to you.

> I hope this answers some of your questions, and I hope that I was not too
> vague.

> Cheers,

> Jason "Shumi" Murray
> Director of Marketing & Business Development
> PDPI

> Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:jd_h4.497$RY1.47891@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Any idea when????  This sounds very exciting.  Of course, remember that
> some
> > of us are on a budget, too.  The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian
> (that's
> > about $110 U.S.).

> > If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make
> them
> > more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but
strong
> > feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you
claim)
> > and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent
> > paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler,
> > you'll certainly get my sale.

> > The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my
> > books.  We have already heard that they work well for people with leg
> > disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind.
They
> > must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use
them
> > (other than the aforementioned).

> > On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention
to
> > her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and
> > torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel.  Do
> you
> > think it's possible that there is that much variation between units??
> That
> > Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks
> > (literally).   I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said
> > theirs are fine??  And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong
> > forces, just the subtle ones.  It seems backwards and the only
explanation
> > is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> > different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models...
What
> do
> > you think?

> > Marc.

> > "Shumi" <coordina...@rs2league.com> wrote in message
> > news:hvTh4.18420$A5.308817@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
> > > It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).

> > > I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS,
> and
> > > I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself).
I
> > have
> > > the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all
> > tremors
> > > from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps
> > Allison
> > > had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my
> > dampening
> > > and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I
> leave
> > > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
> > > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even
> worse
> > > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.

> > > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> > > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what
> has
> > > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.

> > > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel
> for
> > > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know
ALL
> > the
> > > shortcomings of the others.

> > > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the
> guy
> > > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
> > gathered
> > > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might
recognize
> a
> > > few from TV if I told all the names).

> > > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection
> is
> > > all :)

> > > Cheers,

> > > Jason "Shumi" Murray
> > > Director of Marketing & Business Development
> > > PDPI

> > > Marc Collins <marc_coll...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:MDRh4.299$RY1.30853@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to
their
> > > > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?!  It would solve the problem of looking for
an
> > > > adequate wheel dead stop.  No one would have to look further.

> > > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which
> is
> > a
> > > > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL,
> weak
> > > FFB
> > > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title.  In
> addition,
> > > the
> > > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at
both
> > > ends
> > > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at
> both
> > > > ends of the wheel.  This scrunches the already marginal resolution
of
> > the
> > > > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an
> even
> > > > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a
> tight
> > > > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like
> tight
> > > > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)

> > > > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as
> > usual,
> > > > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT
> Labs
> > > > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle
forces
> in
> > > > titles like GPL.  The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems
to
> be
> > > > exactly what is happening.

> > > > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work
at
> > all.
> > > > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my
> Saitek
> > R4
> > > > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel.  I
> used
> > a
> > > > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly
> not

> >Any idea when????  This sounds very exciting.  Of course, remember that
some
> >of us are on a budget, too.  The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian
(that's
> >about $110 U.S.).

> ECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of
price.
> Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in the market
right
> now who hasn't compromised,  and really,  isn't that what all the
complaints
> are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we've already
got to
> many examples of that.

> --
> Don Scurlock
> Vancouver,B.C.

> >It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).

> They are not all 'pathertically' weak. And you see, you can't say that
> unless you've tested all of them. We both know that one sample isn't
> indicative of a product line. To make my upcoming 'shoot-out' review fair,
> I've asked owners of Ferrari and Force RS wheels to email me with brief
> comments. A few of them were from owners of both the LWFF and the Ferrari
> wheel, and the consensus was that the Ferrari had MUCH stronger FF. There
> may have been things that some liked better about the LWFF, but it wasn't
> the strength of FF. With my test unit, the effects in Midtown Madness for
> example, are so strong that I have to run the force at less than 100% or
my
> table shakes so badly that things fall down. And yes it's a strong table
and
> also yes, I still get subtle FF effects. In SCGT I had to turn down the FF
> because (at strong settings) running over curbs actually yanks the wheel
out
> of my hands and pulls my onto the grass, which is not realistic at all.

> >I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> >association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what
has
> >to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.

> Now, why is it technically PATHETIC? It's quite smooth, has strong FF,
good
> resolution and goes where you point it, and it has a very decent set of
> pedals. The wheel rim is very comfortable, it has excellent paddles, added
> levers for gas and brake,  and a very nice stick shifter. (and it looks
> good, too) From the feedback I've been getting (and one main reason for
the
> shoot-out), drivers are caring less about the technical aspects of the
wheel
> and are more concerned that it just plain works well. It doesn't matter
how
> it gets there, just that it does.

> >Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel
for
> >y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
the
> >shortcomings of the others.

> It's easy to know the shortcomings of the others, but will you know the
> shortcomings of yours? You've got to market your product in a competitive
> price range. That means compromises. If price were no object they'd all
have
> ballbearings on the steering shaft and pedals. And a buck's worth of extra
> weight in the pedal base could be ten bucks extra for shipping each unit,
> passed along to the customer (gotta think of everything). Also keep in
mind
> that no matter how good your wheel turns out, you won't please everyone,
and
> sooner or later it'll be your product on this side of this post.  I
> certainly hope your new wheel is great, but I've gotta say, "show me".

> >We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the
guy
> >who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
gathered
> >the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize
a
> >few from TV if I told all the names).

> There's still time for me to make the review a 3-way shoot-out  ;)   Got
an
> extra beta?

> I'm not saying here that the Ferrari wheel is perfect, or that it's the
best
> wheel available. But I'd be happy with it. I actually hope the Act Labs
> wheel is even better. If if it is, I'll come right out and say so in the
> review, and I'll even buy one. It doens't matter to me which wheel I buy
for
> myself. It'll be the one I like the best.

> A final note on tech support. Guillmot's tech support is average by
today's
> standards, not terrible. Their forum is not tech support, and they even
say
> so (although I think it should be). Marc did get his replacement wheel,
and
> I got one quick response from emailing them, and 2 no replies.  Not as bad
> as I got from Diamond (before S3  bought them) or as bad as MS. But of
> course, no way near as good as Act Labs, who seems to be a shining example
> of what tech support could/should be.
> Marc, get rid of your Ferrari wheel. At this point there is no way you
will
> be happy with it even with a perfect replacement. After what you've been
> through its normal.  You obviously like the Saitek wheel, so why not just
> stick with it or buy a new one and save yourself all this unfortunate
grief.
> Don't put yourself through this. One wheel can't satisfy everyone and the
> Ferrari just isn't for you. That doesn't mean its bad,  its just not what
> you want. It doesn't mean that one of us is "crazy", just different.  Hey,
> to some guys a big, blue Elvis on velvet is art. I sure don't agree, but
it
> doesn't mean I'm crazy.

> Slot