rec.autos.simulators

by **Shum** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Let me put this into perspective.

We (PDPI) were originally going to stay out of the controller market as
manufacturers, and simply supply our expertise in the interface dept. as a
B->B (business to business) company (in the form of licensing). As we have
done so far in a matter of speaking with the L4.

We demonstrated to all (ALL of them), and they were very surprised with our
accomplishments. However, when the fact that it would cost them literally
$1.80 per unit more (after cost of chip and licensing were calculated) was
presented... they all pretty much had the same answer... "We don't think
that the users will notice the difference in resolution and other
features... so we cannot justify the increase in price...". Furthermore...
they don't seem to think that you particularly notice ANY of the
shortcomings, and with a bit of marketing they could overcome it (leave you
***).

So... realistically there is a potential for someone to mass produce a
controller that meets the needs of the consumer in the form of quality. WE
are who aspire to do such. ECCI and TSW are among our friends since they are
the ONLY people who saw our technology and said "that is the ONLY USB
implementation we would consider using since we are quality oriented." I
have a very good relationship with these guys, and I have ZERO reservations
in referring their products (they make a great product and are consumer
oriented in the end).

I sincerely wish that those who are champions of the other controller
manufacturers, had sit in on one of these meetings I had with them to see
just how oblivious they are to your needs. I am not saying this as a
competitor (since I have no product to compare... yet...), but rather as a
Sim Racer who walked away thoroughly disgusted with the attitude. "I" am the
guy who moved PDPI into the controller market, "I" am the guy who went out
and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who wants an
affordable controller of quality, and "I" am the guy who will make DAMN SURE
that it is possible. Don't classify me as a marter... I am just like you...
a guy who wants more, and has seen that it can be achieved at an affordable
price. So shoot me for being a Sim fan who wants more, and has been put in a
position to make a difference in the hobby I just ruined by making it my job
(and dropping 3 profitable businesses to accomplish this cause in your
request.) I don't want your simpathy, and I don't want your encouragement...
I just want a wheel that I can call "perfect" in every aspect including
price! It CAN BE DONE, and WILL BE DONE.

Everyone can curse me for being vague at this point, and others can curse me
for putting down the rest. In the end... I am simply holding the others
accountable for attrocious oversights and even worse results. I, or should I
say "we" are on YOUR SIDE. WE want a better controller (in all genres), and
have worked our ass off to make it happen.

Curse us now... you'll love us soon... I am confident of this.

BTW... come May... I'll put our achievements against the rest at E3, and we
"expect" controller of the year hands down. The others simply aren't even
CLOSE to us in interface technology, but then this isn't big news... we have
been carrying them for a while now in the analog side. Just wait until you
see what we have done for USB :)))))))))))

Cheers,

Shumi

P.S. Not directed at any particular reply..... just a general reply to the
thread that seems to have caused some controversy regarding my presence and
demand of accountability from the other controller manufacturers.

> My only point was that it is easy to design a top-notch product (we're not
> talking rocket science with FFB steering controllers) if price point is
not
> an issue. Since it is an issue for 99% of the purchasers out there, it
> should be considered. The issue was addressed satisfactorily in the reply
to
> my post, though.

> Marc.

> > >Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that
> some
> > >of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian
> (that's
> > >about $110 U.S.).

> > ECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of
> price.
> > Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in the
market
> right
> > now who hasn't compromised, and really, isn't that what all the
> complaints
> > are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we've already
> got to
> > many examples of that.

> > --
> > Don Scurlock
> > Vancouver,B.C.

by **Shum** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

You're talking to the bottom feeder as far as lap times in GPL... and you
also have the hammer bearing 2 year old "structural test engineer" that is
attached at my side. I can appreciate your point, but rest assured that we
have gathered people from both ability and computer configuration. It is
important to not only have a broad spectrum of personalities and
abilities.... but also configurations and basic time. We want people to
comment on the precision as much as the sustained beating to no end that it
received successfully or unsuccessfully. We WILL NOT rush this unit to
market like the rest......... perfect... or not at all (and under 200 bucks
BTW).

Cheers,

Shumi

P.S. I keep this post on file in case you have interest in other genres we
are entering (if you're going to throw your hat in the ring.... throw them
all.... we are ALWAYS interested in those willing to contribute to the
common cause).

> > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the
> >guy
> > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
> >gathered
> > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might
> >recognize a
> > few from TV if I told all the names).

> OK, so you've got the best of the best, big deal. I think you need
> someone to represent the pathetically slow great unwashed bottom
> feeders.

> Pick me! Pick me! ;)....

> Anxiously awaiting a press release,
> Kendt

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

by **Mike Turn** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

> out and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who
> make DAMN SURE that it is possible.

I do hope that IF your product ever reaches the market place that us sim
racers dont have to wait as long to purchase it as we do at present for
the much famed PDPI L4 card which it seems has a pre order time of 90
days. A very strange state of affairs......

MikeT.

--

by **Mats Lofkvis** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I've had a Ferrari wheel for about 10 days now, and even though
it is far from perfect, it seems mine is quite different from yours.

I have no complaints at all about the strength of the FF.
The first week I used max torq 500 in GPL, now I'm using 250.
With 500 the strong forces are very noticeable, but I don't have
to use brute force to turn the wheel. With 250 some tracks are
getting close to being a decent workout (e.g. Texas from the
N3 demo). I have tried a few laps with the N3 demo also, and the
FF is strong enough there also (i.e. stronger would make it quite
hard to drive).

My top complaint is that the wheel is notchy. The strong (imo)
FF seems to come from a motor that have been choosen more by
power than by smothness. The notchiness have two bad effects,
the first being that it hides subtle forces (and even rather
strong forces when the wheel is stationary), the second being
that for me it ruins the immersion effect since I really don't
beleive that real GP cars feels like there is gravel in the
steering rack.

My second complaint is that the resolution of the wheel is to
low (around 100, it outputs ~0-1000 in steps of 10). With the
notches in the wheel fine control hard anyway, so this isn't
as noticeable as you would guess from the numbers (my old
wheel with a precision potentiometer makes the PDPI resolution
of 256 quite noticeable).

I propose the following as a FF dynamic resolution test that
will tell more about how much information a wheel is capable
of sending to the driver than the force available:

- start IForce studio and setup the periodic (sinus) force
- set the frequency to 10 Hz and the time to infinite
- check that the max force setting is not clipping, i.e.
that a value below max (10000) really feels weaker than
the max

test 1, stationary:
- hands off the wheel
- start with a peek force setting somewhere in the middle
and decrease it in small steps until the wheel stops moving
- the result is the max value divided by the value when the
wheel stops moving

test 2, moving:
- the same as test 1 but while moving the wheel
- the result is the max value divided by the value when you
can't feel the forces anymore

With my Ferrari wheel, the test 1 result is ~2500 (of 10000)
giving a factor 4 dynamic range which I is quite bad imo.
The test 2 result is ~750 (of 10000) giving a factor ~13
dynamic range which is more reasonable. What this means in
practice with the Ferrari wheel is that you have to move
it around to feel the weaker forces.

It would be interresting to now what results others get on
this test, especially with the Logitech FF wheel.

_
Mats Lofkvist

My current configuration:

IForce
Overall 100%
Spring 0%
Damping 25%

GPL
max torq 250
delay 0.025
damping 5

In GPL I have the steering hack turned off (i.e. no decreased
turning radius at lower speeds) and use a steering ratio of
12 on most tracks (18 at Texas). The linearity slider is
at its leftmost position (i.e. full linearity).

by **Joe Marque** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Alex,

TSW designed such a wheel for a parapalegic and they have added it to their
product line. If you are interested in a much higher quality non-FF wheel
you won't find better quality than TSW. TSW wheels are significantly more
precise and robust than any wheel ever made by TM. I own a TSW2 and it is a
tank. I also own a LWFF and love the FF so I have a real dilemma ;-).
Head-to-head the TSW2 is clearly more durable due to it's simple design and
use of higher quality parts (mostly wood and metal). It will no doubt last
as long as several LWFF wheels. They are hand made by a small U.S. company.
Real nice guys. Here is their site:

http://www.thomas-superwheel.com/

Joe

by **Marc Collin** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Wow, what a reply!! Thanks for all of this valuable and insightful
information.

Sounds like we both hate the low resolution of the wheel (please see my post
below to give feedback to Guillemot), but you are another person who has
much stronger FFB than I have had with either of mine. "GTX_SlotCar" also
says that his has more than adequate forces. If I set my torque in GPL to
500, I would feel absolutely nothing. Even at 250, there are barely any
perceptible forces.

I am now going to study the rest of your reply (the technical part).

Thanks again,

Marc.

> I've had a Ferrari wheel for about 10 days now, and even though
> it is far from perfect, it seems mine is quite different from yours.

> I have no complaints at all about the strength of the FF.
> The first week I used max torq 500 in GPL, now I'm using 250.
> With 500 the strong forces are very noticeable, but I don't have
> to use brute force to turn the wheel. With 250 some tracks are
> getting close to being a decent workout (e.g. Texas from the
> N3 demo). I have tried a few laps with the N3 demo also, and the
> FF is strong enough there also (i.e. stronger would make it quite
> hard to drive).

> My top complaint is that the wheel is notchy. The strong (imo)
> FF seems to come from a motor that have been choosen more by
> power than by smothness. The notchiness have two bad effects,
> the first being that it hides subtle forces (and even rather
> strong forces when the wheel is stationary), the second being
> that for me it ruins the immersion effect since I really don't
> beleive that real GP cars feels like there is gravel in the
> steering rack.

> My second complaint is that the resolution of the wheel is to
> low (around 100, it outputs ~0-1000 in steps of 10). With the
> notches in the wheel fine control hard anyway, so this isn't
> as noticeable as you would guess from the numbers (my old
> wheel with a precision potentiometer makes the PDPI resolution
> of 256 quite noticeable).

> I propose the following as a FF dynamic resolution test that
> will tell more about how much information a wheel is capable
> of sending to the driver than the force available:

> - start IForce studio and setup the periodic (sinus) force
> - set the frequency to 10 Hz and the time to infinite
> - check that the max force setting is not clipping, i.e.
> that a value below max (10000) really feels weaker than
> the max

> test 1, stationary:
> - hands off the wheel
> - start with a peek force setting somewhere in the middle
> and decrease it in small steps until the wheel stops moving
> - the result is the max value divided by the value when the
> wheel stops moving

> test 2, moving:
> - the same as test 1 but while moving the wheel
> - the result is the max value divided by the value when you
> can't feel the forces anymore

> With my Ferrari wheel, the test 1 result is ~2500 (of 10000)
> giving a factor 4 dynamic range which I is quite bad imo.
> The test 2 result is ~750 (of 10000) giving a factor ~13
> dynamic range which is more reasonable. What this means in
> practice with the Ferrari wheel is that you have to move
> it around to feel the weaker forces.

> It would be interresting to now what results others get on
> this test, especially with the Logitech FF wheel.

> _
> Mats Lofkvist

> My current configuration:

> IForce
> Overall 100%
> Spring 0%
> Damping 25%

> GPL
> max torq 250
> delay 0.025
> damping 5

> In GPL I have the steering hack turned off (i.e. no decreased
> turning radius at lower speeds) and use a steering ratio of
> 12 on most tracks (18 at Texas). The linearity slider is
> at its leftmost position (i.e. full linearity).

by **Marc Collin** » Sun, 23 Jan 2000 04:00:00

OK Mats,

I tried the IForce Studio test:

My results were 1900 for test 1 and 400 for test 2...the opposite of what I
expected given that your wheel apparently has a lot more force output than
mine. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the results, but I am also wondering
will control panel settings affect this test or does it read the wheel
"directly"?

Also, My settings in the control panel are 100% overall, 100% spring, and 0%
damping with 20% centring for non-FFB games. Did I read your settings
correctly as 0% spring or was that a typo?

Do the results reflect what you would think (that the weak wheel seems to
perform better down the scale further)? How do we know how strong the 10000
force is one unit vs. another? Maybe mine has a wider (from top to bottom),
but shallower dynamic range...in other words the strongest forces are weaker
and so are the weaker forces weaker, but there is a wider range than maybe
your wheel where it is very strong but drops off quickly??

I look forward to your thoughts, and I do hope Logi owners will try this and
contribute, too.