rec.autos.simulators

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Sat, 01 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Okay, I just got GPL going with the patch. I'm averaging 36 fps at 1280 x
1024. The graphics actually look quite good at this resolution. I especially
like the French track (Rouen ?), but I haven't tried them all. I couldn't
get either trainer car to stay on the track, but the default GP car was
okay. Well, except that they handle nothing like the real cars, which were
actually quite nimble and had decent traction. I probably shouldn't have
said that on this ng, but at 30 mph GPL cars slide like they're on ice and
take 100 feet to stop. I had the opportunity to drive a Lotus in 1977 (?) at
Louden NH when I was racing enduro karts. It was only a couple laps (no,
they weren't racing them, someone just brought it there) and I wasn't taking
any chances, but the car was quite sure footed. The game replicates the
initial take off and high speed shallow curves well, but the rest is off
quite a bit. That being said, I loved the game anyway and plan to race it
quite a bit. From my experience, SCGT has the most realistic handling, but
probably one of the easiest to replicate because of the type of car.
Anyway, my original point was going to be about the Ferrari wheel and GPL.
The wheel is great with the game! It takes some playing with the force
settings if you want to make it feel authentic, but the results are worth
it. Adjusting the FF latency in the game takes a little while because its
trail and error (each wheel will be different), but the default values in
core.ini do work okay too. For those with the Ferrari wheel, my control
panel Gain Settings setup is (and it could change):
Overall device gain 100
Spring gain 100
Damper gain 0 to 5
Default spring Off

If you've got a setup that you think really rocks, let me know. I'd like to
try it.

Slot

by **Marc Collin** » Sun, 02 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I use the same settings that you do for the control panel--100/100/0/off.

The GPL settings I have settled on (at least for now) are damping 0, latency
0, torque 255.

At least GPL allows for direct control of the FFB levels...and you can get
some decent feedback with this wheel. The basic drivers for the Ferrari
wheel are pathetically weak and games like N3 and NL, which worked very well
on my Saitek R4 FFB, are close to dead with the Ferrari. Any idea if/when
Guillemot will fix this (hopefully like Logitech did with their wheel which
suffered exactly the same problem and was cured by new drivers)??

Marc.

by **Jlarson** » Sun, 02 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Have you set the FORCE SCALE and FORCE DAMPING in the N3.ini and the NL.ini
files when using FF in N3 and NL? It made quite a difference.

James Larson
Omaha, Nebraska, USA

by **Marc Collin** » Sun, 02 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Yes I had them set with my prior wheel and have played around with them with
the Ferrari wheel--and maxing out the forces and regardless of where the
damping is set results in pathetically weak feedback. Do you have the
Ferrari wheel or are you just making a general comment?

Marc.

by **Jlarson** » Sun, 02 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Marc, I have the Ferrari wheel and the Logitech Wingman Formula Force wheel
(and the Act Labs force feedback wheel with the shifter is back ordered and
will arrive in a few weeks--I guess I'm sort of obsessive about wheels!)

I felt the Ferrari wheel and Logitech wheel were different when it came to N3
and NL, but not that the Logitech was stronger and the Ferrari weaker. I can't
say I prefer one to the other when it comes to N3 or NL.

I think the Ferrari has greater subtlety on RC2000, by far.

I have the Ferrari wheel with one clamp and the round knob.

James Larson
Omaha, Nebraska, USA

by **Marc Collin** » Mon, 03 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Thanks for the great info. Here are two simple tests to do in N3 or NL:

1) Drive from the apron on to the banking at a track with fairly high
banking....what do you feel through the wheel?

2) Drive on flat track (perhaps around an apron) and purposely make the back
end of the car step out...what do you feel?

With my R4 FFB, I felt what seemed to be fairly appropriate forces through
the wheel signifying both of these events. With the Ferrari....virtually
nothing.

I didn't have the R4 on long enough using RC2000, but I believe a similar
phenomenon is happening there...hit a wall or fly over a jump and you feel
great forces with the Ferrari. But I can't seem to feel any torque steer
with the wheels slipping and biting for traction on gravel that I am sure
was there with the R4.

Any comments on particular forces or feedback done well with any of your
wheels?? You should be a mine of information for all of us less obsessive
wheel users :)

Thanks,

Marc.

by **evente..** » Mon, 03 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Could you comment on the positioning resolution on both these wheels?
I'm in the market for a FF wheel, but would hate to end up with
imprecise steering. I've read good things about both wheels, and the
Ferrari looks like the best deal, especially if they get the drivers
sorted. Have you looked at both wheels with DXTweak?
Any other differences, like frame-rate impact? How about the pedals on
the Ferrari (I've read plenty on the Logitech pedals ;)!).
The Act Labs sounds like it's not what I want, with what I've heard
about notchiness in the wheel.
FWIW, this would be an upgrade from a TM Nascar Pro.

Thanks for any info!
Kendt

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Marc Collin** » Mon, 03 Jan 2000 04:00:00

The Ferrari wheel has 1024 "notches" in the steering...the same as the
Saitek. It's pedals are much higher resolution than the Saitek. There is a
huge difference in pedal controllability in a title like GPL. What's
interesting is that even though the steering should be the same, and all
other settings I am using are the same, the Ferrari is not as smooth,
especially at centre. The optical system in the Saitek seems to be able to
permit one notch at a time turning (try the GPL calibration screen) while
the Ferrari cannot come close. It may be that the belts still need to be
broken in more--at this point I don't know, but there are enough scary
things about the Ferrari that I would not buy one until I had some answers.
Mine will be returned unless Guillemot can guarantee me these issues will be
addressed a.s.a.p.

Hopefully James can tell us about the Logitech.

Marc.

> Could you comment on the positioning resolution on both these wheels?
> I'm in the market for a FF wheel, but would hate to end up with
> imprecise steering. I've read good things about both wheels, and the
> Ferrari looks like the best deal, especially if they get the drivers
> sorted. Have you looked at both wheels with DXTweak?
> Any other differences, like frame-rate impact? How about the pedals on
> the Ferrari (I've read plenty on the Logitech pedals ;)!).
> The Act Labs sounds like it's not what I want, with what I've heard
> about notchiness in the wheel.
> FWIW, this would be an upgrade from a TM Nascar Pro.

> Thanks for any info!
> Kendt

> > Marc, I have the Ferrari wheel and the Logitech Wingman Formula
> Force wheel
> > (and the Act Labs force feedback wheel with the shifter is back
> ordered and
> > will arrive in a few weeks--I guess I'm sort of obsessive about
> wheels!)

> > I felt the Ferrari wheel and Logitech wheel were different when it
> came to N3
> > and NL, but not that the Logitech was stronger and the Ferrari
> weaker. I can't
> > say I prefer one to the other when it comes to N3 or NL.

> > I think the Ferrari has greater subtlety on RC2000, by far.

> > I have the Ferrari wheel with one clamp and the round knob.

> > >Do you have the
> > >Ferrari wheel or are you just making a general comment?

> > James Larson
> > Omaha, Nebraska, USA

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

by **Sjon Stigte** » Mon, 03 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I also have the Ferrari wheel and the FF effects in RC2000 are very strong..
not only when hitting a wall or anything but when I go into a left/right one
type corner full speed I can feel the front wheels starting to loose their
grip and the wheel turn light...

I think your Ferrari wheel had something wrong inside. Mine works great and
has some strong and very smooth FF effects, not only in RC2000 but also in
GPL, RS2, N3 and other games. Overall I am very happy with the wheel, only
the brake pedal feels a bit sensitive to me but I think that's just
something I have to get used to...

--
Regards,

_________________________________________
Sjon Stigter

_________________________________________
I'm your dream, make you real
I'm your eyes when you must steal
I'm your pain when you can't feel
Sad but true
_________________________________________

by **Marc Collin** » Tue, 04 Jan 2000 04:00:00

As I said, it's not the amount of force for some titles like RC2000--it's
the specific nature of the forces or lack thereof. Do you find the forces
in N3 as strong as in RC2000? They are vastly different on my system. Does
your Ferrari wheel have one***clamp or two on the bottom?

Thanks,

Marc.

> > I didn't have the R4 on long enough using RC2000, but I believe a
similar
> > phenomenon is happening there...hit a wall or fly over a jump and you
feel
> > great forces with the Ferrari. But I can't seem to feel any torque
steer
> > with the wheels slipping and biting for traction on gravel that I am
sure
> > was there with the R4.

> I also have the Ferrari wheel and the FF effects in RC2000 are very
strong..
> not only when hitting a wall or anything but when I go into a left/right
one
> type corner full speed I can feel the front wheels starting to loose their
> grip and the wheel turn light...

> I think your Ferrari wheel had something wrong inside. Mine works great
and
> has some strong and very smooth FF effects, not only in RC2000 but also in
> GPL, RS2, N3 and other games. Overall I am very happy with the wheel, only
> the brake pedal feels a bit sensitive to me but I think that's just
> something I have to get used to...

> --
> Regards,

> _________________________________________
> Sjon Stigter

> _________________________________________
> I'm your dream, make you real
> I'm your eyes when you must steal
> I'm your pain when you can't feel
> Sad but true
> _________________________________________

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Tue, 04 Jan 2000 04:00:00

My Ferrari wheel has about 420 notches, lock to lock. Nowhere close to 1024.
You're implying that the Saitek has a resolution of 1024, but no optical
system has an effective resolution of much over 96, which is less than the
128 or so of wheels with pots. The absolute best resolution possible in a
wheel is 256, but you'll never see much more that 128 on any wheel. This
isn't something that you can fix with software, although good drivers can
make a wheel "feel" more precise than the numbers indicate. Games like GPL
and N3 do a good job extrapolating the resolution, but they can't make a bad
wheel better than a good one. Nevertheless, all the specs in the world
won't tell you as much as actually driving with the wheel.

Slot

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Tue, 04 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Marc, there is always going to be some latency. Why would you set it at 0 ??
As far as "fixing" the amount of FF, I don't know. I'm not aware that
anything needs fixing. I have plenty of FF power. And yes, I feel all the
small stuff as well. If you threw a pea on the track and I ran over it, I'd
feel it. If you spat on the track and my tire hit it, I'd feel the loss of
traction. Subtle enough? I'm not into arcade type realism. These cars had
suspensions. If I run over a curb in SCGT, I don't want it to pull me
uncontrollably off the track. I want to feel the wheels losing grip a little
after it happens, like in a real car, not before it happens. If I'm not
mistaken, these cars could pull about 1G on a test pad. When they let go,
you had to really be quick to save it. In GPL, I also like setting up the
paddle brake as the clutch. In N3 all the right forces are there. It feels
right and predictable. Running over a pea should not feel like running over
a bolder.

Slot

> I use the same settings that you do for the control panel--100/100/0/off.

> The GPL settings I have settled on (at least for now) are damping 0,
latency
> 0, torque 255.

> At least GPL allows for direct control of the FFB levels...and you can get
> some decent feedback with this wheel. The basic drivers for the Ferrari
> wheel are pathetically weak and games like N3 and NL, which worked very
well
> on my Saitek R4 FFB, are close to dead with the Ferrari. Any idea if/when
> Guillemot will fix this (hopefully like Logitech did with their wheel
which
> suffered exactly the same problem and was cured by new drivers)??

> Marc.

> > Okay, I just got GPL going with the patch. I'm averaging 36 fps at 1280
x
> > 1024. The graphics actually look quite good at this resolution. I
> especially
> > like the French track (Rouen ?), but I haven't tried them all. I
couldn't
> > get either trainer car to stay on the track, but the default GP car was
> > okay. Well, except that they handle nothing like the real cars, which
were
> > actually quite nimble and had decent traction. I probably shouldn't have
> > said that on this ng, but at 30 mph GPL cars slide like they're on ice
and
> > take 100 feet to stop. I had the opportunity to drive a Lotus in 1977
(?)
> at
> > Louden NH when I was racing enduro karts. It was only a couple laps (no,
> > they weren't racing them, someone just brought it there) and I wasn't
> taking
> > any chances, but the car was quite sure footed. The game replicates the
> > initial take off and high speed shallow curves well, but the rest is off
> > quite a bit. That being said, I loved the game anyway and plan to race
it
> > quite a bit. From my experience, SCGT has the most realistic handling,
but
> > probably one of the easiest to replicate because of the type of car.
> > Anyway, my original point was going to be about the Ferrari wheel and
GPL.
> > The wheel is great with the game! It takes some playing with the force
> > settings if you want to make it feel authentic, but the results are
worth
> > it. Adjusting the FF latency in the game takes a little while because
its
> > trail and error (each wheel will be different), but the default values
in
> > core.ini do work okay too. For those with the Ferrari wheel, my control
> > panel Gain Settings setup is (and it could change):
> > Overall device gain 100
> > Spring gain 100
> > Damper gain 0 to 5
> > Default spring Off

> > If you've got a setup that you think really rocks, let me know. I'd like
> to
> > try it.

> > Slot

by **Marc Collin** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Exactly!!! Except that in N3 with my wheel, I can feel almost nothing short
of slamming into a wall. Yet GPL works reasonably well. I guess either you
are nuts or my wheel is defective. I am calling Guillemot right now....

Thanks for the helpful feedback,

Marc.

> In N3 all the right forces are there. It feels
> right and predictable. Running over a pea should not feel like running
over
> a bolder.

> Slot

> > I use the same settings that you do for the control

panel--100/100/0/off.

> > The GPL settings I have settled on (at least for now) are damping 0,
> latency
> > 0, torque 255.

> > At least GPL allows for direct control of the FFB levels...and you can
get
> > some decent feedback with this wheel. The basic drivers for the Ferrari
> > wheel are pathetically weak and games like N3 and NL, which worked very
> well
> > on my Saitek R4 FFB, are close to dead with the Ferrari. Any idea
if/when
> > Guillemot will fix this (hopefully like Logitech did with their wheel
> which
> > suffered exactly the same problem and was cured by new drivers)??

> > Marc.

> > > Okay, I just got GPL going with the patch. I'm averaging 36 fps at
1280
> x
> > > 1024. The graphics actually look quite good at this resolution. I
> > especially
> > > like the French track (Rouen ?), but I haven't tried them all. I
> couldn't
> > > get either trainer car to stay on the track, but the default GP car
was
> > > okay. Well, except that they handle nothing like the real cars, which
> were
> > > actually quite nimble and had decent traction. I probably shouldn't
have
> > > said that on this ng, but at 30 mph GPL cars slide like they're on ice
> and
> > > take 100 feet to stop. I had the opportunity to drive a Lotus in 1977
> (?)
> > at
> > > Louden NH when I was racing enduro karts. It was only a couple laps
(no,
> > > they weren't racing them, someone just brought it there) and I wasn't
> > taking
> > > any chances, but the car was quite sure footed. The game replicates
the
> > > initial take off and high speed shallow curves well, but the rest is
off
> > > quite a bit. That being said, I loved the game anyway and plan to race
> it
> > > quite a bit. From my experience, SCGT has the most realistic handling,
> but
> > > probably one of the easiest to replicate because of the type of car.
> > > Anyway, my original point was going to be about the Ferrari wheel and
> GPL.
> > > The wheel is great with the game! It takes some playing with the force
> > > settings if you want to make it feel authentic, but the results are
> worth
> > > it. Adjusting the FF latency in the game takes a little while because
> its
> > > trail and error (each wheel will be different), but the default values
> in
> > > core.ini do work okay too. For those with the Ferrari wheel, my
control
> > > panel Gain Settings setup is (and it could change):
> > > Overall device gain 100
> > > Spring gain 100
> > > Damper gain 0 to 5
> > > Default spring Off

> > > If you've got a setup that you think really rocks, let me know. I'd
like
> > to
> > > try it.

> > > Slot

by **Marc Collin** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

Well, 1024 notches show up in the GPL calibration screen, as they did with
the Saitek. The pedal resolution is much higher with the Ferrari, though,
so I perhaps I am wrongly assuming that the GPL calibration screen actually
works properly.

What I can tell you for sure is that the Ferrari wheel is much more "notchy"
in the way it reacts in-game (regardless of title). In other words, it acts
like it has only about 420 notches compared to triple that with the other
wheel. It's like it is impossible to make very small steering corrections.
My DX deadzone settings (all 0) remain the same.

Marc.

> My Ferrari wheel has about 420 notches, lock to lock. Nowhere close to
1024.
> You're implying that the Saitek has a resolution of 1024, but no optical
> system has an effective resolution of much over 96, which is less than the
> 128 or so of wheels with pots. The absolute best resolution possible in a
> wheel is 256, but you'll never see much more that 128 on any wheel. This
> isn't something that you can fix with software, although good drivers can
> make a wheel "feel" more precise than the numbers indicate. Games like GPL
> and N3 do a good job extrapolating the resolution, but they can't make a
bad
> wheel better than a good one. Nevertheless, all the specs in the world
> won't tell you as much as actually driving with the wheel.

> Slot

> >The Ferrari wheel has 1024 "notches" in the steering...the same as the
> >Saitek. It's pedals are much higher resolution than the Saitek. There
is
> a
> >huge difference in pedal controllability in a title like GPL. What's
> >interesting is that even though the steering should be the same, and all
> >other settings I am using are the same, the Ferrari is not as smooth,
> >especially at centre. The optical system in the Saitek seems to be able
to
> >permit one notch at a time turning (try the GPL calibration screen) while
> >the Ferrari cannot come close. >

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Wed, 05 Jan 2000 04:00:00

I see, Marc. You're counting the points of resolution as 'notches'. I think
everyone else is counting the 'notches' you feel when you actually turn the
wheel. I've hooked up 3 of my current wheels to N3 and they all show 1024
points of resolution (which I think N3 extrapolates from the original 256
points available and multiplies by 4). The wheels I used are the Ferrari
wheel, the Andretti wheel and the CH EXL500. If you notice, the Ferrari
wheel has about 220 degrees, lock to lock. But notice that only 180 degrees
are usable. In other words, the last 20 degrees in each direction are dead
space and don't show up as wheel movement. Other wheels, like the Andretti
and possibly you Saitek, have 270 degrees, lock to lock. So one wheel will
be more sensitive than the other, and which you like best is a personal
preference.
Next, check out your Ferrari wheel and see if it centers properly. If you
lock it to the right and let it go, does it spring back to center? What
about locking it to the left? Mine pulled heavily to the right before I
adjusted the trimmer inside, and the forces were all screwed up (obvioulsy).
I suspect one of two problems with your setup. Either the wheel isn't
calibrated correctly from the factory, or you're spoiled by unrealistic
forces from your Saitek, meaning that you expect a pebble to feel like a
rock and your Saitek delivers.

Slot

"You know, a nickel ain't worth a dime anymore".

>Well, 1024 notches show up in the GPL calibration screen, as they did with
>the Saitek. The pedal resolution is much higher with the Ferrari, though,
>so I perhaps I am wrongly assuming that the GPL calibration screen actually
>works properly.

>What I can tell you for sure is that the Ferrari wheel is much more
"notchy"
>in the way it reacts in-game (regardless of title). In other words, it
acts
>like it has only about 420 notches compared to triple that with the other
>wheel. It's like it is impossible to make very small steering corrections.
>My DX deadzone settings (all 0) remain the same.

>Marc.

>> My Ferrari wheel has about 420 notches, lock to lock. Nowhere close to
>1024.
>> You're implying that the Saitek has a resolution of 1024, but no optical
>> system has an effective resolution of much over 96, which is less than
the
>> 128 or so of wheels with pots. The absolute best resolution possible in a
>> wheel is 256, but you'll never see much more that 128 on any wheel. This
>> isn't something that you can fix with software, although good drivers can
>> make a wheel "feel" more precise than the numbers indicate. Games like
GPL
>> and N3 do a good job extrapolating the resolution, but they can't make a
>bad
>> wheel better than a good one. Nevertheless, all the specs in the world
>> won't tell you as much as actually driving with the wheel.

>> Slot

>> >The Ferrari wheel has 1024 "notches" in the steering...the same as the
>> >Saitek. It's pedals are much higher resolution than the Saitek. There
>is
>> a
>> >huge difference in pedal controllability in a title like GPL. What's
>> >interesting is that even though the steering should be the same, and all
>> >other settings I am using are the same, the Ferrari is not as smooth,
>> >especially at centre. The optical system in the Saitek seems to be able
>to
>> >permit one notch at a time turning (try the GPL calibration screen)
while
>> >the Ferrari cannot come close. >

rec.autos.simulators

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel

GPL and Ferrari wheel