rec.autos.simulators

by **JTW620** » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

I wouldn't say heel-toeing downshifting in order to match revs for the lower
gear is to prevent gearbox damage or accidental missed downshifts, but to
prevent any additional torque transfer through the driveline. When you don't
blip the throttle to get the engine to the right rpm, the car lurches, right?
We've all done that. Shift from a high speed into first gear. Even while
braking, the car jolts to a little lower speed abruptly.
What's happening is a matter of inertia. The engine is turning slow, the
*** is turning fast. Drop the clutch when you're in that lower gear and the
engine speeds up very quickly to match the transmission. Remember Isaac
Newton? Action/Reaction? When the engine speeds up quickly at clutch
engagement, the driveline slows down (negative torque, just like a brake).
Whatever amount of torque it takes to speed up the engine during that quick
engagement time is exactly how much torque (but in the opposite direction) will
be shot through the transmission. If your rears are at their braking/traction
limit, you just added a bit more braking force unintentionally and 'round ya
go!
The heel-toe downshift prevents this from happening. If the clutch is let
out with the input *** shaft and engine speeds matched, there's no reaction
between the two. Now the only thing slowing you down is that perfectly
graceful foot on the magic "woah!" pedal, connected to brakes that can lock the
wheels all by themselves hopefully, without the aid of engine braking!
Todd

by **Dave Powel** » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and my skills
were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally
clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have
synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I tried
these changes this on a nice 80,000miles gearbox in a herald..and it was
much much much easier than the 5,000mile gearbox in my spitfire...Spitbox
are very very tight when new and those spitfire gears make very very bad
noises when you crunch em :)) Im sure i could got the changes down to a fine
art but not with my new gearbox i paid a fortune for...

also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be rebuilt
after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles do
they..even in a racers hands :)

DP

>> I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very
>> difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a few
>modern
>> cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxs
>are
>> harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch foot
>its
>> beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the
>> clutch once rolling ever again :)

>There's the clue... the synchros are making up for any inadequacies in
>technique, whereas the Spitfire *** was the true test of your skill.
>Guess what the modern transmission is going to look like after a few
>thousand km if you are relying on the synchros telling you when it's good
to
>go for the next gear?

>Stephen

by **Dave Powel** » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

As i said before boxs in a race are rebuilt even few thousands miles..so
using this technique even for a great racer is bad on the box..And in my
escort i did about 20,000miles doing delivery runs and the box was still
sweet...True when waiting for the stick to tell you when its right is
waiting on the synchros but after time you dont need to wait as you now the
revs and timing..but intially learning the technique wating for the right
moment on the snchyros helped..but after a while you just know the system
and get it straight in....

But if you drive your cars hard maybe a box (sncyros) every 10,000miles aint
to bad..Hell the motor in my spitfire needed new bigends ever
15,000miles..so mabye this could be added to the rountine maintence....:)

DP

>> gear...Its the feeling through the gear stick that tells you, just rev it
>> high) then as the revs are diclining you start to put pressure on the
>stick
>> and if you rev to 5500-6000 between changes then as the revs dicline you
>> will hit the point of revs and gears are matched and then the stick will
>> just pop into gear..it so easy..Just Rev high and be ready straight away
>> after youve reved on the stick applying slight pressure..The box does the
>> change for you..It aint hard..You just gotta make sure youve reved high

>Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is not a proper technique.
>You are using the synchros as a crutch for bad technique, and you're going
>to crunch them soon enough. I recommend everyone who wants to try this go
>get an automotive repair manual and read up on what the synchros do. Then
>go to your local transmission shop and ask for the cost of parts and labour
>to replace the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros.

>Stephen

by **Eldre** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

writes:

1986 Ford Escort. I had never driven a manual before I bought it. I learned
when I picked up the car. The salesman taught me how to drive it in a parking
lot, and I drove it home. Only stalled it once...<g> It wasn't hard to LEARN,
it just got to be a hassle in rush hour traffic, or if I needed to drive with
just my left hand - and use my right hand for 'other' purposes. I had a
girlfriend at the time...<vbg>

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Martyn Danb** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

LOL eldred, i can relate but didn't wanna discuss that side of it +)
tho usually the stick jus got in the way!!

mebbe thats why the north americans liked auto's and even 3 on the tree,
so they could have a big bench seat...

my thots

Md

> writes:

> >Ick.. Escort...

> >That was my first stick. (North american 83 HO model) Unfortunately it
> >was the family car, and i bein all of 17 took the transaxle out of it
> >within the first year. I did love that car tho, had many a good race
> >down the old 'B' line in it.

> >Md

> 1986 Ford Escort. I had never driven a manual before I bought it. I learned
> when I picked up the car. The salesman taught me how to drive it in a parking
> lot, and I drove it home. Only stalled it once...<g> It wasn't hard to LEARN,
> it just got to be a hassle in rush hour traffic, or if I needed to drive with
> just my left hand - and use my right hand for 'other' purposes. I had a
> girlfriend at the time...<vbg>

> Eldred
> --
> Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
> Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

tried

The British had discovered synchromesh as long ago as 1967? :-) You would
never know it with a MGB we had... crunch crunch crunch... where's ?*%$!
first gear gone?

The straight-cut gears help a lot, but it's true they are rebuilt.

Stephen

by **Stephen Ferguso** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese? I got 300,000km out
of the top and bottom end of a bulletproof Toyota twin-cam with frequent
trips to the lofty range of the rev counter. The bottom end was based on
their supercharged and formula atlantic motor. Likewise, the bottom end of
my old GTi went 250,000 (we won't talk about the shitty head, but it gave me
an excuse to put in bigger valves). Again, the bottom end was designed for
diesel duty, so very stout.

Stephen

by **John Wallac** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

It did.

My mother told me about an old car her father owned many years ago
which was configured like that. She borrowed it without permission to
take to a dance, and when turning back into the driveway tried to
press the "brake" to negotiate the turn and accelerated through his
garage - he said he didn't know whether to be angry or cry with
laughter at her shock.

Cheers!
John

by **Alpha Omeg** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:41:56 -0400, "David R. Ericson"

>Yes... Pittsburgh, PA to be a bit more precise. I figured that's what my knees
>are for. It's an art form. Big Mac in mouth, map on lap, left hand on wheel,
>shift with right hand and left foot, map back in left hand, Big Mac in right
>hand, left knee controls steering wheel, right foot on gas... throw in
>Super-sized fries and Sprite and it starts to get even more interesting...
>works beautifully for me! :-)

I wouldn't like to be in your shoes if there's an accident and the
police and insurance companies learn what you were doing while you
were driving.

I can understand that feeling. I feel the same way about motorcycles.
How anybody can enjoy riding an automatic motorcycle (or scooter) is
beyond me. It removes the fun from the bike. But, a car is an entirely
different subject. The first car I drove was a manual, and I thought
it couldn't get any better, until I tried an automatic and realised it
was much more fun.

Alpha Omega

ICQ: 70300233

by **Alpha Omeg** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic.

I'm not surprised your son found it difficult to drive a manual
transmission
vehicle. Why would he want to, after making the smart decision and
driving
an automatic before hand?

No, because I'm a good driver. I know that if it's snowing, I
shouldn't have
the RPM's high at all.

A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because
you're in
direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use
the
clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch
pressing
takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're
having
to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on
more
than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it.

Alpha Omega

ICQ: 70300233

by **Alpha Omeg** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:00:24 +0100, "Dave Powell"

>Because anyone with a interested in using a car for a good belt on a quiet
>road aint gonna chose an automatic...***y awful :)..i drove one one day
>used the stick like a manual all day...1st 2nd 3rd zzzzzzzzz terrible, i
>enjoy my driving and a automatic i might as well take the bus :)...Autos
>stink and are for old men and people without the confidence to drive a
>manual shift <G> Each to there own of course but autos......

I think not!

I'm 18 and I drive an automatic. I first started in a manual and
enjoyed it thoroughly and had no problems controlling it, but after
trying an automatic I soon learnt how much more exciting it was and
now I only drive an auto.

But, I can sympathise with your need to drive a manual transmission
vehicle. I've been racing motorcycles since I was 13 and only stopped
doing it a short while ago, but I still can not understand how or why
those other motorcyclists on the road who drive automatic bikes
(scooter) can do it. It removes all the enjoyment from riding.

But, cars and motorcycles are an entirely different ball game.

Alpha Omega

ICQ: 70300233

by **Alpha Omeg** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:39:47 -0700, Marty

>What country is that?

>And how would anyone know what foot you are using to brake?

The UK.

And as long as your driving instructor, or driving examiner was awake,
they'd know which foot you were using to break with. If they caught
you using the left foot, you'd fail, which is why you're not allowed
to use it.

Alpha Omega

ICQ: 70300233

by **Alpha Omeg** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

We're not supposed to rest our foot against the brake. It's supposed
to sit on the floor, on the left of the break, where it can relaxe and
make fun of the right foot, which is doing all the work. :-)

Nope. The best argument for right foot breaking is that it's much
easier to use and is safer. Pretty good reasons, if you ask me.

If you had taken your automatic driving test in this country (UK),
you'd have learnt that left foot breaking is wrong. You can not use it
under test conditions.

Alpha Omega

ICQ: 70300233

by **Alpha Omeg** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

That's right, BUT if you take a manual test and then use an automatic,
you've not had a chance to be taught the correct way to drive an
automatic.

Alpha Omega

ICQ: 70300233

by **Brett C. Camma** » Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:00:00

On Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:52:13 +0200, "Stephen Ferguson"

>Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese?

It certainly approximated it. Best damned bearings I ever found for
my Spridgets were from Beck-Arnley and were called "Glacier
Tin-Aluminum". The embeddable substrate was a soft aluminum alloy
instead of soft lead. Made a huge difference in infant mortality and
long-term durability.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

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