rec.autos.simulators

by **Kevin Ta** » Mon, 19 Jun 1995 04:00:00

I'm so sick of all these people acting like they've found some
pot-of-gold with their car set-ups! Come on people! There's no need to
be so greedy. Everyone always says,"Start with the Ace setting and
figure it out for yourself!" I mean really, is that neccessary!? I
understand that you'll have a "greater appreciation for your race car"
if you sit down and figure it out, but I just don't have that much
time! With version 1.2 and the track pack, you have so much more to do.
So come on!!!! Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
against you and beat you!!!
Be Kind,
Kevin

"Sharin' in the Groove...."

by **ICRS'** » Mon, 19 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>Subject: Set-ups!!What's the big deal???
>Date: 18 Jun 1995 21:59:34 GMT
> I'm so sick of all these people acting like they've found some
>pot-of-gold with their car set-ups! Come on people! There's no need to
>be so greedy. Everyone always says,"Start with the Ace setting and
>figure it out for yourself!" I mean really, is that neccessary!? I
>understand that you'll have a "greater appreciation for your race car"
>if you sit down and figure it out, but I just don't have that much
>time! With version 1.2 and the track pack, you have so much more to do.
> So come on!!!! Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
>against you and beat you!!!
> Be Kind,
> Kevin

> "Sharin' in the Groove...."

I usually share some of my less than best setups with others, but even so, you
have to understand people's reluctance to merely hand out setups. Just as you
say, it takes a LOT of time to get the proper setup. These people spent
countless hours getting their proper setup, just as any REAL team must do.

If you don't have the time to work on your own setup, then you're going to
have to make do and enjoy the game as it is, right out of the box. Nothing
wrong with that either, just drop your opponent strengths. Of course, if you
want to race up there with the rest of us, you have to earn it... and spend
some time in the garage.

Ralf Southard
ICRS'95 Director

by **Mike Skilt** » Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
>> against you and beat you!!!
>Kevin:
>Sharing setups doesn't really work. I've been in leagues for WC, ICR and NASCAR and have shared
>setups with lots of teammates and the one constant is that a setup that is a worldbeater for one
>person might not be worth beans for someone else just because driving styles differ in sims just
>as they do in the real world.
>For example, I like my cars very loose so I can blast through the turns, but my World Circuit
>teammate couldn't even get through a corner with it.
>So, I'm not being greedy when I suggest that the best thing you can do is to come up with your
>OWN setups because they are the only ones that will really suit your style.
>-------------------//------------------------------------------
> | )/-\(_)|__ // "He's either blind, stupid, or both."
> | nightshade // -- Derek Daly on Pierluigi Martini
>----------------//---------------------------------------------

Paul,

For newbies it gives them a place to start. If more people post setups then
people can find one that suits their drving style.

-Mike

------------
Mike Skilton

CompuServe : 100445,1555

by **G. Aldric** » Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:00:00

in Tate) writes:

> >Subject: Set-ups!!What's the big deal???
> >Date: 18 Jun 1995 21:59:34 GMT
>=20
> > I'm so sick of all these people acting like they've found some
> >pot-of-gold with their car set-ups! Come on people! There's no need to
> >be so greedy. Everyone always says,"Start with the Ace setting and
> >figure it out for yourself!" I mean really, is that neccessary!? I
> >understand that you'll have a "greater appreciation for your race car"
> >if you sit down and figure it out, but I just don't have that much
> >time! With version 1.2 and the track pack, you have so much more to do.
> > So come on!!!! Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
> >against you and beat you!!!
> > Be Kind,
> > Kevin
> > =20
> > "Sharin' in the Groove...."=20
>=20
>=20
> I usually share some of my less than best setups with others, but even so=
, you=20
> have to understand people's reluctance to merely hand out setups. Just a=
s you=20
> say, it takes a LOT of time to get the proper setup. These people spent=
=20
> countless hours getting their proper setup, just as any REAL team must do=
.
>=20
> If you don't have the time to work on your own setup, then you're going t=
o=20
> have to make do and enjoy the game as it is, right out of the box. Nothi=
ng=20
> wrong with that either, just drop your opponent strengths. Of course, if=
you=20
> want to race up there with the rest of us, you have to earn it... and spe=
nd=20
> some time in the garage.
>=20
> Ralf Southard
> ICRS'95 Director
>=20

Ralf.....your full of shit.=20
If I had all the best setups I'd share them with everyone including=20
( I can relate) people who do not have time.

Real NASCAR teams & Drivers as well as other types, have always shared=20
information, everything from how to go faster to borrowing engines. =20
=20
This is one of the reasons I'm on the NET ! , because of
all you friendly helpful people who want info and want to=20
share info.=20
=20
Someone please send M. Waltrip over Ralf's
=20
=DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =
=DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =20
=DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =
=DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =20

\__/=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\_____ \__/=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\_____ \__/=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D\_____
[( )------( )-\ [( )------( )-\ [( )------( )-\
-------------------------------------------------------------- =
=20
NASCAR " It dosn't get any closer "

by **nightsh..** » Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:00:00

Please share a little, I promise that I won't race

Kevin:
Sharing setups doesn't really work. I've been in leagues for WC, ICR and NASCAR and have shared
setups with lots of teammates and the one constant is that a setup that is a worldbeater for one
person might not be worth beans for someone else just because driving styles differ in sims just
as they do in the real world.
For example, I like my cars very loose so I can blast through the turns, but my World Circuit
teammate couldn't even get through a corner with it.
So, I'm not being greedy when I suggest that the best thing you can do is to come up with your
OWN setups because they are the only ones that will really suit your style.

-------------------//------------------------------------------
| )/-\(_)|__ // "He's either blind, stupid, or both."
| nightshade // -- Derek Daly on Pierluigi Martini
----------------//---------------------------------------------

by **mdonn..** » Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:00:00

It's not so much that we've found the 'pot of gold', it's just that you
can't necessarily share setups. I've tried. I race in the NASCAR Racing
League (NRL) on Papyrus's Support BBS and I do so on a team. My team
mates and I have tried to trade setups to no avail. It didn't work
because we drive around the track differently. That's all. The setups
that my 'mates sent me had me sucking concrete in no time flat, while my
setups were far to slow for their style. What did work for us was
trading techniques. This greatly improved my times (so much so that I
had the best results in the latest race- of my team that is). I hope
that clarifies a thing or two.

Mike

by **mdonn..** » Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> I usually share some of my less than best setups with others, but even so, you
> have to understand people's reluctance to merely hand out setups. Just as you
> say, it takes a LOT of time to get the proper setup. These people spent
> countless hours getting their proper setup, just as any REAL team must do.

I disagree. Some of us don't feel that our setups are noteworthy AND as
I've experienced, sharing setups isn't necessarilly sharing speed.
Technique is more important than maxing out the setup. Having shared
good setups with my teammate I discovered that we couldn't share and make
it work. Not one bit. BUT, in discussing technique, we found we could
share ideas that improved our overall times. Setups are a matter of
driving style. I've heard of more than one person who by correctly
driving the ACE setup has taken the pole and gone on to win the race.
Just by good racing.

As to help with setups IF you can get your hands on a copy of
Circle Track 95 Annual edition that will help somewhat. It lets you
interpret what is wrong with the car using the tire temps as the
diagnostic device.

It isn't the be-all, end-all but it helps.

Mike

by **Brian Fergus** » Tue, 20 Jun 1995 04:00:00

: Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
: > against you and beat you!!!

: Kevin:
: Sharing setups doesn't really work.
: <good reasons deleted>

Paul is right...to a point. If you're looking for a good starting point
though, check out the PC HOF. Look for the regular postings here from
Dave Gymer as to how to obtain it/join it/etc. There are _very_ good
setups in it for _qualifying_ conditions. To adapt them to your style,
you will have to play around. And they _won't_ be the optimum _race_
settings, but they may point you in the right direction.

So Paul's right, everyone needs to tune their setup to their own style.
But these setups may at least put you in the right ballpark. It sure
helped me :-)
_ ___ ___ ___ _ _ ____
--Brian Ferguson | | | __|| . )/ __| | |_| | / __ \ LFRS '95-96
--Newmarket, ON, CAN | |_ | _| | < \__ \ |___ | \___ | Uranus-Nissan

--

by **G. Aldric** » Wed, 21 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>=20
> "My full of shit? Is that different from YOUR full of shit. And WHAT's =
full=20
> of shit. You make a profoundly meaningless statement there.
>=20
> > If I had all the best setups I'd share them with everyone including=3D2=
0
> > ( I can relate) people who do not have time.
>=20
> I'm sure.
>=20
> > Real NASCAR teams & Drivers as well as other types, have always shared=
=3D20
> > information, everything from how to go faster to borrowing engines. =
=3D20
> >=3D20
>=20
> Oh yeah, this is why everybody is given a garage pass to EVERYBODY's gara=
ge,=20
> and everyone is fully aware of all the intricate details of every engine.=
=20
> This is why the Marlboro Team Penske would not discuss the design of that=
=20
> fin they used on their cowling. Give me a break. All the teams look for=
a=20
> legal advantage whenever they can. I ALREADY said I share my setups. Bu=
t=20
> your statements are shit deep.
>=20
> > This is one of the reasons I'm on the NET ! , because of
> > all you friendly helpful people who want info and want to=3D20
> > share info.=3D20
> >=3D20
>=20
> Since you don't seem to have anything to offer, looks more like you're (n=
ot=20
> your) looking to GET info.
>=20
> > Someone please send M. Waltrip over Ralf's
> >=3D20
>=20
> Mr. Waltrip must be a friend of YOURS... acting before knowing what the h=
ell=20
> YOU'RE (not YOUR) talking about. Before you even ASSUME to know me, you =
can=20
> avoid mail bombing by taking a mment to think.
>=20
> > NASCAR " It dosn't get any closer "
>=20
>=20
> OOoooh, nice signature. Makes a LOT of sense.
>=20
> Ralf Southard
> ICRS'95 Director
>=20

Sorry Ralf but, you have not changed my mind that your not
full of it. The reason for this is simple,=20
You claim that everyone must spend countless hours setting up in
the garage. (WHY ?) Well I think your wrong, if someone who has
no idea of how to set up a car and has little time, wants to get
setups from other people, then by all means they should.=20

If you asked me to tell you how to setup your mouse in windows
I'm NOT going to tell you, hell no it took me a lot of time & hard work and=
=20
you'll have to earn it yourself. I don't believe most people would say=20
something like that.

Am I getting through now ?

We are talking about NASCAR & INDYCAR, computer simulations, games, for=20
enjoyment remember ? =20

I have seen a lot or replies from people who say " oh, we should'nt
share setups, does not work because of driving style "=20

Nobody really believes that ***do they ???

and turn. Hopefully you in the groove while doing this.
Come on this is a game, (AGAIN)=20

Its true that one persons setup may not be " perfect " for someone
else but, its not because of driving style. You don't have that much
latitude in a computer sim, period.

Ralf, I want to let you know I was wrong for Slamming
you so hard, I guess I could have been a little more tactful
about getting my point of view across.

If a person is on the net ( not directed at you Ralf )
and is NOT going to contribute in some way, share IDEAS, OPINIONS, FILES,=
=20
ETC. and I mean give and take, then they are worthless at the very least.

The success of the Internet and the enjoyment that we all receive
from it depends on how many people are willing to share.=20

Oh, btw Ralf, your the only one who didn't like my sig

=C4=CD_/ =E5\___ Ft. Lauderdale, Fl =20
=C4=CD / _ _ \ ------------ =20
=C4=CD=CD =FA=CD=C4=C4(_)=C1=C4=C4(_)=CD=BE " Theres nothing a little =
=20
shock therapy won't cure "

by **ICRS'** » Wed, 21 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>Subject: Re: Set-ups!!What's the big deal???
>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 00:00:46 -0400
> Ralf.....your full of shit.=20

"My full of shit? Is that different from YOUR full of shit. And WHAT's full
of shit. You make a profoundly meaningless statement there.

I'm sure.

Oh yeah, this is why everybody is given a garage pass to EVERYBODY's garage,
and everyone is fully aware of all the intricate details of every engine.
This is why the Marlboro Team Penske would not discuss the design of that
fin they used on their cowling. Give me a break. All the teams look for a
legal advantage whenever they can. I ALREADY said I share my setups. But
your statements are shit deep.

Since you don't seem to have anything to offer, looks more like you're (not
your) looking to GET info.

Mr. Waltrip must be a friend of YOURS... acting before knowing what the hell
YOU'RE (not YOUR) talking about. Before you even ASSUME to know me, you can
avoid mail bombing by taking a mment to think.

> =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =
>=DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =20
> =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =
>=DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =DB=DB =20

> \__/=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\_____ \__/=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\_____ \__/=3D=
>=3D=3D=3D=3D\_____
> [( )------( )-\ [( )------( )-\ [( )------( )-\
> -------------------------------------------------------------- =
> =20
> NASCAR " It dosn't get any closer "

OOoooh, nice signature. Makes a LOT of sense.

Ralf Southard
ICRS'95 Director

by **Brian Fergus** » Wed, 21 Jun 1995 04:00:00

: : Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
: : > against you and beat you!!!

: : Kevin:
: : Sharing setups doesn't really work.
: : <good reasons deleted>

: <***I wrote>

As Murray Walker would say, "I take it all back". I caught this thread
in mid-stream courtesy of the worlds most random news feed, and when I
saw Paul's name, I assumed F1GP. So ignore me, I'll go away now...

...dreaming of a decent ISP...

Brian

--

by **G. Aldric** » Thu, 22 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> Hi from Vienna/Austria!
>=20

>=20
> |> Sorry Ralf but, you have not changed my mind that your not
> |> full of it. The reason for this is simple,=3D20
> |> You claim that everyone must spend countless hours setting up in
> |> the garage. (WHY ?) Well I think your wrong, if someone who has
> |> no idea of how to set up a car and has little time, wants to get
> |> setups from other people, then by all means they should.=3D20
>=20
> Let me warn you: Driving with someone else's setup will not
> help your driving style nor will it help you to develop
> setup skill.

=20
WAKE UP !
You are confusing ability with this so called " Driving Style ".
In a simulation or a game there is no " Driving Style "
its a ***ing computer game. Papryus did a great job but not quite
as virtual as you want to believe.=20

You should let those people who want to decide for themselves
if they want to use someone else's setup and tweek it to thier=20
own personal satisfaction. BTW some people out there
didn't buy the game to spend hours setting up a car, they want to drive.
As far as setup skill, leave it to them to decide what they want.=20

=20
un.
=20
Again with this driving style !!!! Ahhh ...its a game, its not real life
do you understand this ???? The variables that make up success or failure
are written in the programmers code. To compare this to real driving
in real life is crazy,.. next you'll tell me that Dungons and Dragons
is just like real life only the dragons are bigger in real life....
You all need to wake up out of your fantasy and realize that
INDYCAR & NASCAR are ***ing GAMES, not just good games but great
games and games is what they will only ever be, period.

As for my Driving Skill, I set it at 95% and I'm running from 4 sec
to within .03 seconds of all the lap records, thanks for the advice
but, I'll pass.

Your lost again I'm not going to explain my analogie.=20

>=20
> |>=20
> |> We are talking about NASCAR & INDYCAR, computer simulations, games, fo=
r=3D20
> |> enjoyment remember ? =3D20
> |>=20
> |> I have seen a lot or replies from people who say " oh, we should=
'nt
> |> share setups, does not work because of driving style "=3D20
> |>=20
> |> Nobody really believes that ***do they ???

> |> and turn. Hopefully you in the groove while doing this.
> ^^^^^^^^^
> No. This is nothing to hope for.
> Skillful drivers stay in the groove at 180 mph while others are thrown in=
to
> the wall when they try the turn with 170 mph.
> And I have observed it: A good driver with a setup from another good driv=
er
> gets thrown into the wall at 175, too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sure sometimes
I noticed you said SKILLFULL, this is the keyword here, sounds like
your drivers are using a different " STYLE " maybe one of them is holding
his pinky out while hitting the gears......seriouly, the setups
may or may not work for someone else but they need to decide that.
Driving " style " has absolutly NOTHING to do with it, personal
ability & SKILL does. Hand & Eye co-ordination ??????

Wake up Herbert, snap out of it dude, where have you read that I don't=20
have time for this SIM/GAME ? NASCAR & INDY - I love it !
I know alot more than you think, and I'm at least logical about
the difference between a game and the real world.
You've been listining to all these candy ass whiners who are
to greedy to share a good setup with others because they spent
hours developing a secret ( HA ) setup and are paranoid
that someone might be able to top their average lap speed. (SKILL)
I have seen many setup swaps/trades that have worked out fine for other=20
people, I have also seen few that were not so good, but if this
is due to skill or what you experts call " DRIVING STYLE " then
chances are good that there are some setups that will work
for more than one person. This decision as to " is this a good setup for=20
me ? " is made by the person who has traded or obtained a setup of someone=
=20
else's design. You or anyone else can not decide that.
=20
Anyone who thinks that their setup can only work for themselves or only a=
=20
small percentage of people is truly and deeply FULL OF SHIT.
Think about it, its a rather simple concept to grasp.=20

_____________________________________________________

=C4=CD_/ =E5\___ Ft. Lauderdale, Fl =20
=C4=CD / _ _ \ ------------ =20
=C4=CD=CD =FA=CD=C4=C4(_)=C1=C4=C4(_)=CD=BE " Theres nothing a little =
=20
shock therapy won't cure "
-----------------------------------------------------

by **Stuart Boo** » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> I'm so sick of all these people acting like they've found some
>pot-of-gold with their car set-ups! Come on people!

I understand that individual setups rarely work for others because of
each persons unique driving style. What would be better is to ask
specific questions about how altering one setup affects the car.
Alternatively, posting settings so that others can at least try a few
new things is a good idea.

For instance we Europeans have the bag of shite *** manual which
gives NO information on setup AT ALL. The only way to get a clue is to
drive lots of laps and tweak things one at a time once you can do
consistent laps, so suggestions would help me a great deal. Somebody
else posted their Michigan settings. I can compare those with what I'm
using to see if any great alterations help me out. Whether or not I
understand WHY something works is of course problematic without a
decent manual to explain things.

Stuart.
Stuart Booth
Transport Routeing Software

by **Craig Parso** » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>If people would courteously ask for some help in setting up their
>car, saying what they're trying and ask for a direction to go in, I'm
>sure many people (including myself) would gladly give them some hints
>or tell them exactly where they can find hints. I have answered many
>emails telling people how to improve their setups and directing them
>to the IICC web and ftp site for more hints. Now please grow up
>a little and stop demanding stuff and insulting people.

The heck with "hints" and "direction" I inderstand where alot of you
are comming from and if I've got a good setup you can have them. This
is a game of skill, and a very good one at that. If you use my setup
and beat me then all that proves is I've got some more practice to do.

Now that being said, if others of you do not wish to give others your
setups that is well within your rights. Just stop preaching to the
masses about how you justify this.

Nothing to hide!
Craig

by **Nightstalke** » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00

Grant Aldrich keeps rambling on:

< WAKE UP !
< You are confusing ability with this so called " Driving Style ".
< In a simulation or a game there is no " Driving Style "
< its a ***ing computer game. Papryus did a great job but not quite
< as virtual as you want to believe.

So a driver who sets up his car with a 'looser' rear end he can
slide around corners better with, has a different 'ability'
instead of different 'style'?!?!?!!?

< You should let those people who want to decide for themselves
< if they want to use someone else's setup and tweek it to thier
< own personal satisfaction. BTW some people out there
< didn't buy the game to spend hours setting up a car, they want to drive.
< As far as setup skill, leave it to them to decide what they want.

So go ahead drive! What the hell are you complaining about?!?!?
Any game you play needs a certain amount of practice for you to
be good at it... Some games need a fast trigger finger, others
require more work like fine-tuning a car setup and studying the
effects that 0.001" stagger has on the handling...

<> If you don't have the time to set up your car for
<> YOUR driving style and YOUR CURRENT ability of holding the line:
<> Stick to the EASY setup and fight 80% opponents. You will have a lot of fun.

(Grant continues with his crap...)
< Again with this driving style !!!! Ahhh ...its a game, its not real life
< do you understand this ???? The variables that make up success or failure
< are written in the programmers code. To compare this to real driving
< in real life is crazy,.. next you'll tell me that Dungons and Dragons
< is just like real life only the dragons are bigger in real life....
< You all need to wake up out of your fantasy and realize that
< INDYCAR & NASCAR are ***ing GAMES, not just good games but great
< games and games is what they will only ever be, period.

I'd call them 'simulations', there's a distinct difference...
And you can just blow those ***ing D&D analogies (like all the
rest of your damn analogies) out of your goddamn bung-hole for
all I care, they have no relevance to what you're blabbering on about...

< As for my Driving Skill, I set it at 95% and I'm running from 4 sec
< to within .03 seconds of all the lap records, thanks for the advice
< but, I'll pass.

What lap records are you talking about, the ones listed in ICR,
or the ICRFL list? Sounds like you're talking about the ICR
records since you're driving at 95%... In that case I would
just pack my bags and shut the *** up if I were you... You're
in this over your head, boy...

< I noticed you said SKILLFULL, this is the keyword here, sounds like
< your drivers are using a different " STYLE " maybe one of them is holding
< his pinky out while hitting the gears......seriouly, the setups
< may or may not work for someone else but they need to decide that.
< Driving " style " has absolutly NOTHING to do with it, personal
< ability & SKILL does. Hand & Eye co-ordination ??????

If you don't get it, you just won't get it... Some people like
higher wing settings, other's get along with much less and still
the lap times are similar... If that isn't different driving
styles then what is?

< Wake up Herbert, snap out of it dude, where have you read that I don't
< have time for this SIM/GAME ? NASCAR & INDY - I love it !
< I know alot more than you think, and I'm at least logical about
< the difference between a game and the real world.
< You've been listining to all these candy ass whiners who are

Sounds to me like you're the one doing all the whining...

< to greedy to share a good setup with others because they spent
< hours developing a secret ( HA ) setup and are paranoid
< that someone might be able to top their average lap speed. (SKILL)
< I have seen many setup swaps/trades that have worked out fine for other
< people, I have also seen few that were not so good, but if this
< is due to skill or what you experts call " DRIVING STYLE " then
< chances are good that there are some setups that will work
< for more than one person. This decision as to " is this a good setup for
< me ? " is made by the person who has traded or obtained a setup of someone
< else's design. You or anyone else can not decide that.

Like DC said in his previous post, if you expect those of us with
thousands and thousands of laps in the books to divulge our testing
results for the whole world to see, you're the one living in a dream
world... We compete, we share ideas and tips, but we do our own
testing and enjoy the results. Those of you who want in on how to
be faster can ask around, and we'll more than likely give those same
hints and tips to you, but no way are we handing out exact setups...

< Anyone who thinks that their setup can only work for themselves or only a
< small percentage of people is truly and deeply FULL OF SHIT.
< Think about it, its a rather simple concept to grasp.

Did anyone say that our personal setups work JUST for us?
Didn't think so...

Are you high on something? Oh, and after what you just pulled
bashing Ralf and Herbie, don't expect any help from the IICC
drivers (THE fastest on the 'net)... You're pissed off at being slow,
face it and learn to live with it!

< _____________________________________________________

< =C4=CD_/ =E5\___ Ft. Lauderdale, Fl =20
< =C4=CD / _ _ \ ------------ =20
< =C4=CD=CD =FA=CD=C4=C4(_)=C1=C4=C4(_)=CD=BE " Theres nothing a little =
< =20
< shock therapy won't cure "
< -----------------------------------------------------

Your sig is just so "full of shit" like everything else you keep
flinging out here.... Go home and grow up...

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NIGHTSTALKERS 37th TFW University of Helsinki
Physics/Computer Science
Web: http://www.racesimcentral.net/~reimaa/

"It seems to be easier to go -V.Adm. Tom Connolly, USN
to the moon than it is to get Deputy Chief of Naval Operations
a good air-to-air missile." 1971 Senate Armed Services Committee
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