rec.autos.simulators

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

Todd Norr

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Todd Norr » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00


I had heard the problem in the UK was a tendency to drive clockwise >:>

Peter Burk

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Peter Burk » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00



>For instance we Europeans have the bag of shite *** manual which
>gives NO information on setup AT ALL. The only way to get a clue is to
>drive lots of laps and tweak things one at a time once you can do

It's not in the manual - and if you take a look at the Indycar
records, there are more Europeans in that list that US drivers...

The hints and the replays for fast laps are all available on
the net, just not the exact setups. It takes a lot of time
and effort to get to those levels, and believe me, if
I gave you my current Milwukee hotlap setup, you wouldn't
even make it one lap for the first 20 times out of pit lane...

get busy - test - experiment, check tire temps, look at replays

the tools are out there, the hints are, the replays are.

check ftp://didnt.doit.wisc.edu and dig into the IICC/hotlaps/...
subdirectories.



Division of Information Technology    | 608-262-0282
1210 W. Dayton St., Madison, WI 53706 |

Peter Burk

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Peter Burk » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00



>The heck with "hints" and "direction" I inderstand where alot of you
>are comming from and if I've got a good setup you can have them.  This
>is a game of skill, and a very good one at that.  If you use my setup
>and beat me then all that proves is I've got some more practice to do.

So where are your setups - post the damn setups so we can
see what you got! I'll post my last year's ***setups, too, once
I see some from you.

and yes - it's a game - but some people play this game in a
very competitive manner, and giving away what they know would be
foolish if they want to have fun in the comeptition they elected
to compete in. Right now I am about 2.5mph off the apce of my
opponents at Milwaukee - and I have not the slightest idea how
they make the cars work at the higher speeds. But I am not asking
them to reveal the secret - never - that would take all the fun out
of the damn game! Everyone who has about 20,000+ virtual miles
in Indycar Racing will agree that it isn't that much fun to race
dtupid computer cars - so the remaining fun factor is right in the
struggle for the fastest laps on those tracks. What fun would
it be to take Terje Johannsen's Milwaukee setup and run another
182 lap in 10 minutes of testing? What's the point?



Division of Information Technology    | 608-262-0282
1210 W. Dayton St., Madison, WI 53706 |

Gary Cousi

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Gary Cousi » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00

   .
   .
   .
  <cut>

| Now, before you start throwing a tantrum again, we also do a helluvalot
| to help out ANYONE who needs to get up to speed. There are detailed
| setup AND driving hints on the IICC web site, and as stated before
| the replays of about 90% of the fastest laps turned at each track are
| on the IICC ftp site. A replay will help you more than a setup!

Where are these IICC web and ftp sites?   I think seeing a replay of the
fastest laps will be very beneficial in helping me adjust my setups.  By
examining the replay I will be able to see where I am losing time.  Knowing
where will give a clue on what adjustments I need to make either in
driving or tuning.

About driving others setups (Papyrus BBS), I have to say that 100% of the
time I have to adjust somethings to make them work for me.  I do think
they are a good starting point.  It usually is an advantage to start from
someone's good setup that you drive decently, then it is to start with one
of the basic setups.  The trick here is finding that right initial setup.
The majority of the setups I have downloaded I could not use.  I have gotten
pretty good at fine tuning (wings, camber, and tire pressure) the setups for
my driving style.  What I need help on is the initial coarse tuning
(suspension) starting from one of the standard setups.  Testing at Indy
helped me some, mainly because I could not get a hold of any setups that I
drove decently (< 212mph lap times).  I spent a lot of hours testing to get
my speed above 221mph.

As far as expecting others to display their setups, I would not do it if I
had a record time (I don't).  I know there would be others out there that
could fine tune it to suit them and would come close or beat my time.  And,
now that I am competing in ICRS95, I see that the competition is high, and
you need any advantage you can get to come out ahead.  Therefore, I would not
expect other non-record holders to display their good setups either.

Gary Cousins

Richard Sco

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Richard Sco » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00





>: :  Please share a little, I promise that I won't race
>: : >  against you and beat you!!!

>: : Kevin:
>: : Sharing setups doesn't really work.  
>: : <good reasons deleted>

>: <***I wrote>

>As Murray Walker would say, "I take it all back".  I caught this thread
>in mid-stream courtesy of the worlds most random news feed, and when I
>saw Paul's name, I assumed F1GP.  So ignore me, I'll go away now...

>...dreaming of a decent ISP...

>Brian

>--

Can't take anything for granted with Paul. He races everything. :-)

Richard Scott
#6 #28
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Darrel David Cher

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Darrel David Cher » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00

: Where are these IICC web and ftp sites?   I think seeing a replay of the
web: http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/Peter/default.html
ftp: ftp://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/icr/iicc/hotlaps/replays

: fastest laps will be very beneficial in helping me adjust my setups.  By
: examining the replay I will be able to see where I am losing time.  Knowing
: where will give a clue on what adjustments I need to make either in
: driving or tuning.

Very much so, you can tell quite a bit about a setup from a replay. I
would MUCH rather have a replay than a setup any day!!

: As far as expecting others to display their setups, I would not do it if I
: had a record time (I don't).  I know there would be others out there that
: could fine tune it to suit them and would come close or beat my time.  And,

Nobody would if they were competing Gary, you're just honest about it.
There are other factor's involved in our record times, like we have
damage ON. It would not be too hard for some joker to take our setups,
turn damage off, and bounce off the walls to a faster lap time on the
street courses.

And to that goof telling me I'm "justifying" not giving away my setups,
I'm not justifying anything; the question was posed, "Hey why don't you
give us your setups", and I gave a clear, strong supported answer. I can
care less if you like my opinion, and it sure as hell isn't change from
your whining.

 Darrel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 Darrel Cherry    
 San Jose State University - Math/Computer Science Dept.

 web:   http://www.isc.sjsu.edu/b/t/dcherry/public_html  
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Uhh, no you got the wrong number....this is 91..2
      - Chief Wiggum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Sco

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Richard Sco » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00


>Hi from Vienna/Austria!


>|>  Sorry Ralf but, you have not changed my mind that your not
>|> full of it. The reason for this is simple,=20
>|> You claim that everyone must spend countless hours setting up in
>|> the garage. (WHY ?) Well I think your wrong, if someone who has
>|> no idea of how to set up a car and has little time, wants to get
>|> setups from other people, then by all means they should.=20

>Let me warn you: Driving with someone else's setup will not
>help your driving style nor will it help you to develop
>setup skill.

>If you don't have the time to set up your car for
>YOUR driving style and YOUR CURRENT ability of holding the line:

>Stick to the EASY setup and fight 80% opponents. You will have a lot of fun.

>|>
>|> If you asked me to tell you how to setup your mouse in windows
>|> I'm NOT going to tell you, hell no it took me a lot of time & hard work and=
>|> =20
>|> you'll have to earn it yourself. I don't believe most people would say=20
>|> something like that.
>|>
>|> Am I getting through now ?

>No. Maybe one needs a mouse to get a certain job done. But it seems that
>you just want to have fun. It will not be fun to fight against a setup that doesnt
>fit your style/ability.

>|>
>|> We are talking about NASCAR & INDYCAR, computer simulations, games, for=20
>|> enjoyment remember ? =20
>|>
>|>       I have seen a lot or replies from people who say " oh, we should'nt
>|>  share setups, does not work because of driving style "=20
>|>
>|> Nobody really believes that ***do they ???

>|> and turn. Hopefully you in the groove while doing this.
>             ^^^^^^^^^
>No. This is nothing to hope for.
>Skillful drivers stay in the groove at 180 mph while others are thrown into
>the wall when they try the turn with 170 mph.
>And I have observed it: A good driver with a setup from another good driver
>gets thrown into the wall at 175, too.

>|> Come on this is a game, (AGAIN)=20
>|>
>|> Its true that one persons setup may not be " perfect " for someone
>|> else but, its not because of driving style. You don't have that much
>|> latitude in a computer sim, period.

>You have no idea what's going on in the Indycar/NASCAR sims, period.

>(Don't take this as an offense. You dont have much time for these sims,
>so this is perfectly understandable.)

I think Ralf just came across a little harshly. Some of us share
set-ups, but we don't make them common knowledge because we spend
a LOT of time on them. I have a set-up that allows me to run 130 mph
laps at Bristol that I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time on. If I was
simply playing for fun, that'd be one thing, but many of us race in
sim series, and don't want to give away what little advantage we have.
If I were to post that set-up, that would affect my sim series chances.
While this is for fun, there IS still the element of competition.
  Remember, helping someone begin setting up a car is one thing. Giving
them something that you've spent a great amount of time on is another.
I'll help anyone with set-ups. I WON'T give away my final ones though.

Richard Scott
#6 #28
*******************************************************


* Control Data Systems  * voice     : 615-690-4680    *  
* 9041 Executive Park Dr* fax       : 615-690-5862    *
* Suite 212             * voice mail: 615-539-9489    *
* Knoxville, TN 37923   *                             *
*******************************************************
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Darrel David Cher

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Darrel David Cher » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00

:  Sorry Ralf but, you have not changed my mind that your not
: full of it. The reason for this is simple,=20
: You claim that everyone must spend countless hours setting up in
: the garage. (WHY ?) Well I think your wrong, if someone who has
: no idea of how to set up a car and has little time, wants to get
: setups from other people, then by all means they should.=20

It is extremely arrogant (and extremely ignorant) for you to think we
(who turn fast laps) are obligated to give away our setups. Yes, we do
spend countless hours testing and creating good setups for the tracks.
And we do it because we LOVE to compete in IndyCar. There are a few
different ways to compete - IICC, ICRS, and the ICR Fastlaps records.
Competition is always tight, and our teams spend hours upon hours to find
any little setup edge to squeeze out that extra .1mph to beat our opponents.
So, don't even think for a second we are going to give away our setups.

Now, before you start throwing a tantrum again, we also do a helluvalot
to help out ANYONE who needs to get up to speed. There are detailed
setup AND driving hints on the IICC web site, and as stated before
the replays of about 90% of the fastest laps turned at each track are
on the IICC ftp site. A replay will help you more than a setup!

If people would courteously ask for some help in setting up their
car, saying what they're trying and ask for a direction to go in, I'm
sure many people (including myself) would gladly give them some hints
or tell them exactly where they can find hints. I have answered many
emails telling people how to improve their setups and directing them
to the IICC web and ftp site for more hints. Now please grow up
a little and stop demanding stuff and insulting people.

: If you asked me to tell you how to setup your mouse in windows
: I'm NOT going to tell you, hell no it took me a lot of time & hard work and
: you'll have to earn it yourself. I don't believe most people would say
: something like that.

They would if you made childish demands and called them "full of shit"...
And, don't forget all though "mouse-setup" competitions...

: Am I getting through now ?

You never will with a bad attitude.

: We are talking about NASCAR & INDYCAR, computer simulations, games, for
: enjoyment remember ?

Yes, but others might enjoy it differently than you (i.e. competing in
Internet competitions) and you should respect that. If you don't, well,
don't expect them to help you.

:  Ralf, I want to let you know I was wrong for Slamming
: you so hard, I guess I could have been a little more tactful
: about getting my point of view across.

It's nice to see you apologize to Ralf, what you said was uncalled for.
You should step back and think before writing a post like that.

: If a person is on the net  ( not directed at you Ralf )
: and is NOT going to contribute in some way, share IDEAS, OPINIONS, FILES,
: ETC. and I mean give and take, then they are worthless at the very least.

As stated above, most people who turn the fast laps DO contribute
significantly. Maybe it would be nice if you gave us the benefit of
doubt and asked where you can find some hints at. Everyone would be
much happier.

Darrel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 Darrel Cherry    
 San Jose State University - Math/Computer Science Dept.

 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Uhh, no you got the wrong number....this is 91..2
      - Chief Wiggum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mdonn..

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by mdonn.. » Fri, 23 Jun 1995 04:00:00


> We are talking about NASCAR & INDYCAR, computer simulations, games, for
> enjoyment remember ?  

>       I have seen a lot or replies from people who say " oh, we should'nt
>  share setups, does not work because of driving style "

> Nobody really believes that ***do they ???

Absolutely.  Now it is you who are full of it. I've tried to race with my
team mates setup and I couldn't do it.  He was shifting where I certainly
didn't want to shift and he liked the car on the loose side (I like it
neutral always -if I can get it there!).  


> and turn. Hopefully you in the groove while doing this.
> Come on this is a game, (AGAIN)

Not so.  Certain Nascar drivers use Papyrus's SIMULATION to get in the
swing for the next race.  Some other racing professionals use it to learn
(or relearn) certain lessons on the track.  IF the setups don't make that
much difference just use the stock setups and try to drive the same way
each time.  Then get on the Papyrus BBS and download a few setups from
there.  I quickly turned a setup that generates 96 mph on the
Martinsville track into a 86 mph piece of junk because I didn't drive it
right.  

In *this* one you do.  This isn't a simple one groove GAME.  The groove
does change and there are several ways around most tracks.  

I'll share ideas and techniques, but I won't share my setup for two
reasons: 1) I honestly believe (reinforced by experience) that two people
who don't drive alike won't get the same results and 2) my setups aren't
anything to write about.  Although I am (slowly) improving).  One thing
that I did find to help was the 95 Annual edition of Circle Track.  
Learning to read what the tires are telling you is a needed skill to get
a few mph out of the car.

mdonn..

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by mdonn.. » Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:00:00


> > Let me warn you: Driving with someone else's setup will not
> > help your driving style nor will it help you to develop
> > setup skill.
>  WAKE UP !
>  You are confusing ability with this so called  " Driving Style ".
>  In a simulation or a game there is no " Driving Style "
>  its a ***ing computer game. Papryus did a great job but not quite
>  as virtual as you want to believe.

No, you are wrong.  There are style differences.  One of my team mates
likes his setups on the loose side (ass end swinging out in a turn); me,
I like it close to neutral.  He *taught* me that downshifting was a key
concept in short track racing.  Using his setup (NASCAR) I was able to
meet the wall repeatedly.  He didn't meet the wall with mine, BUT his lap
times went way down.  In the end, I scored higher on that (league) race,
but did it because he gave me a pointer in technique, NOT a 'hot' setup.  
Unlike "Days of Thunder"; there is no one "almighty" setup; able to do
all, be all, and always take the checkered.  One thing you'll have to
work on is learning to drive the course.  NASCAR in particular is a place
where the equipment isn't *supposed* to win the race, the driver is.  I
don't have (yet) Indycar, but, driving well is going to be a factor there
as well.  

Ah, but this driving game is very well modeled on solid reality.  The
physics are (mostly) there (although on replay I miraculously see AI cars
spin on their axis to align with the track to run), and most of the
responses are based in physics (certainly a mathmatical area that a
computer can emulate) thus it simulates (accurately enough that a few
Winston Cup drivers use it to prep for upcoming races with it!) racing.  
Many of the functions and actions (heat buildup, traction loss, weight
shifting) are well documented and well simulated on the virtual track.  
The difference between your dragon analogy and the racing analogy is that
you can get into a car and check out certain laws of physics.  Such as:
what if I achieved a high rate of speed on a banked turn and the
oversteered the wheel?  In the sim your but is going to swing out and
meet Mr. Wall.  In reality your but is going to swing out and hit a
guardrail (if one is installed).  Check it out for yourself.  It does
work in both places.  And that is why it is called a simulation.  It acts
similarly to the real thing.  

Not so, for the reasons I've stated above.

Working your way to 100% (or beyond) is certainly one method of getting
there.  Good luck.

mdonn..

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by mdonn.. » Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:00:00



> >One thing
> >that I did find to help was the 95 Annual edition of Circle Track.  
> >Learning to read what the tires are telling you is a needed skill to get
> >a few mph out of the car.

> Which issue was this?

> rob

Exactly what I wrote.  The 1995 Annual edition (yes, it is a special
edition) of Circle Track magazine.  You might have to get a copy of
Circle Track and get in contact with them to get it.  Hopefully they'll
do a reprint as I've tried in vain to get a second copy for a friend and
competitor in the NASCAR Racing League.  Fortunately, he found one on his
own.

Mike

mdonn..

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by mdonn.. » Sat, 24 Jun 1995 04:00:00


> I think Ralf just came across a little harshly. Some of us share
> set-ups, but we don't make them common knowledge because we spend
> a LOT of time on them. I have a set-up that allows me to run 130 mph
> laps at Bristol that I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time on. If I was
> simply playing for fun, that'd be one thing, but many of us race in
> sim series, and don't want to give away what little advantage we have.
> If I were to post that set-up, that would affect my sim series chances.
> While this is for fun, there IS still the element of competition.

I don't think your sim series advantage is going to be given away.  I
can't drive most other folks setup and they tend to lose speed on mine.  
That's life both in and out of the computer tracks.
Todd Norr

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by Todd Norr » Sun, 25 Jun 1995 04:00:00




>> I think Ralf just came across a little harshly. Some of us share
>> set-ups, but we don't make them common knowledge because we spend
>> a LOT of time on them. I have a set-up that allows me to run 130 mph
>> laps at Bristol that I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time on. If I was
>> simply playing for fun, that'd be one thing, but many of us race in
>> sim series, and don't want to give away what little advantage we

have.

I have no issue with sharing setups, I just don't expect anyone to get
anything out of it. If anyone wants setups, I'll gladly mail them
along, but please don't try them, hate them, and mail me back that I'm
clueless.
Last night 2 of us did an empirical test: downloaded a setup for
Atlanta from Papyrus's board, went to preseason test, set the cars to
be identical, fixed the weather to be identical, on 2 computers
(486100mhz notebooks) that were identical, and raced...Both Scott and I
are equivalently experienced drivers. He complained constantly (sorta
sounded like Gordon) that for the first 10 laps, the car was wicked
loose...I thought it was fine. At lap 52, my tars started to go away
and it developed a hideous push, and I started to whine. Scott's tires
came in. He ran 76 laps to a fuel stop..I had to stop at 63.
It's definitely a combination of driver and setup that makes it work.

G. Aldric

Set-ups!!What's the big deal???

by G. Aldric » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00


>=20
> I just got this message in my mailbox which I think is pretty much
> THE most childish thing I have ever seen.  Just thought the rest
> of you might want to know what kind of a loser we're dealing with.
>=20
>=20
> Btw, this is the first 'finger' I have ever received!
> I wonder if he made that just for me, or if he always has one
> ready to go...just in case he doesn't like the opinions of
> others.... ;)
>=20
>=20
>=20
>                                    =DC=DC=DC=DC
>                                   =DE=DD  =DE=DD
>                                   =DE    =DD
>                                   =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>                                   =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>                                   =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>                                   =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>                                   =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>                             _ =DC=DC=DC=DC=DE=DB=B2=B2=DB=DD=DC=DC=DC=DC
>                            / =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD=DB=DB=DB=
=DB=DD=DC=DC=DC
>                          =DC=DB =DC=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD=DB=

=DB=DB=DB=DD=DB=DB=DB=DD
=DB=DB=DB=DB=B0=DB=DB=DB=DD
=DB=DB=DB=B1=DB=DB=DB=DD
=DB=DB=DB=B2=DB=DB=DB=DD

 If you'd like to get The " Byron " Treatment yourself, keep it=20
 up. You won't receive any more WARNINGS
  =20
 Yea...its childish so *** OFF you ejaculated ******er.


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