rec.autos.simulators

by **ICRS'** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>Subject: Re: Set-ups!!What's the big deal???
>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:17:29 -0400
> Sorry Ralf but, you have not changed my mind that your not
>full of it. The reason for this is simple,
>You claim that everyone must spend countless hours setting up in
>the garage. (WHY ?) Well I think your wrong, if someone who has
>no idea of how to set up a car and has little time, wants to get
>setups from other people, then by all means they should.

No, never claimed that "everyone must spend countless hours setting up in the
garage." Those that excel at it do, that's fact. As for people who have no
idea... I've helped plenty of people with setups, even handed some great ones
out. I just simply don't give setups to people who demand it of me.

Loud and clear... you can't tell the difference. Explaining anything to you
is just short of a waste of time.

Yep... do you? If you read the manual, and you don't want to learn, why did
you buy a game/sim so detailed it requires garage time if you don't want to
put any time into it? Get an arcade game.

Absolutely. It's been proven time and again.

>and turn. Hopefully you in the groove while doing this.
>Come on this is a game, (AGAIN)

That's right it's a game, but not an arcade game. There is more involed than
simply driving and avoiding the walls. The time spent in the garage is a big
part of it, just like the real thing.

There's a LOT of latitude between styles. Then you also throw in input
devices and the latitude increase even more. Open your eyes.

That's very tactful... yeah right. On you go.

Never said I didn't like it... I just couldn't see it.

Oh, btw Grant, you'll note I removed all the "=20"s from your followup.
Where's that coming from anyway?

> =C4=CD_/ =E5\___ Ft. Lauderdale, Fl =20
> =C4=CD / _ _ \ ------------ =20
>=C4=CD=CD =FA=CD=C4=C4(_)=C1=C4=C4(_)=CD=BE " Theres nothing a little =
> =20
> shock therapy won't cure "

I still don't see it... what is it?

Ralf

by **ICRS'** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> WAKE UP !
> You are confusing ability with this so called " Driving Style ".
> In a simulation or a game there is no " Driving Style "
> its a ***ing computer game. Papryus did a great job but not quite
> as virtual as you want to believe.=20
> You should let those people who want to decide for themselves
> if they want to use someone else's setup and tweek it to thier=20
> own personal satisfaction. BTW some people out there
> didn't buy the game to spend hours setting up a car, they want to drive.
> As far as setup skill, leave it to them to decide what they want.=20

Grant, this time I won't even bother corecting the speeling mistakes OR
deleting the "=20"s. To paraphrase you comment above "you should let people
who want to decide for themselves if they want to SHARE THEIR setups with
someone else... don't go demanding it.

We stepped into this thread merely explaining WHY many people don't share
their setups... then you go demanding that we do. YOu are learning the ahrd
way how to be welcomed on the net. We are not a hostile group... definitely
not as hostile as you.

Your profanity with no substance also shows an immaturity that some of us
frankly don't believe you will ever grow out of until you take a deep breath
and see that you are getting nowhere.

Nice of you to be so specific. And I guess you learn something everyday... I
didn't know there was a percent setting for Driving Skill... what menu is that
under? How to I set my own Driving Skill? Is it a setting in the game? or
on my computer? Is it on my driving wheel?

Nope, it is up to the person who setup the car to decide whether s/he will
share it. You're making demands again.

- Show quoted text -

Grant, Grant, Grant, you just don't get it, do you? Nobody cares how often
you write *** or shit or try to tell us it's a game. Bottom line is we don't
owe you a thing. And we've never asked you for anything. Well, except that
you get a grip.

If you're so close to all the track records, you don't need any setups. If
you have such a better grasp on what is real and what is not, don't make this
such an important issue. You're frustrated, admit it. YOu can't cut it, and
you want help. You're (note: that's not "your") probably the type of guy who
would have your coworkers do all the work for you and then tell the boss you
did it all by yourself. You're (not "your) not going to make any friends that
way.

Personally, I always give someone another chance if they come around and
realize their mistakes. I've had to do it myself. But if you persist in your
demand for us to share setups... well, I've heard of some *** things on the
horizon.

Good luck to all at Portland (ICRS) and Milwaukee (IICC)!

Ralf Southard
Two Daves Racing

by **ICRS'** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>I think Ralf just came across a little harshly. Some of us share
>set-ups, but we don't make them common knowledge because we spend
>a LOT of time on them. I have a set-up that allows me to run 130 mph
>laps at Bristol that I spent an ENORMOUS amount of time on. If I was
>simply playing for fun, that'd be one thing, but many of us race in
>sim series, and don't want to give away what little advantage we have.
>If I were to post that set-up, that would affect my sim series chances.
>While this is for fun, there IS still the element of competition.
> Remember, helping someone begin setting up a car is one thing. Giving
>them something that you've spent a great amount of time on is another.
>I'll help anyone with set-ups. I WON'T give away my final ones though.
>Richard Scott

Absolutely. I was very harsh... it just seemed the only language Grant could
understand. Evidently I was wrong.

To follow up on Richard's comments, he really expressed it better. I did
mention earlier that I do share setups, but not to people who demand it of me.
There are many individuals who are competing in various online series. These
leagues make it MORE than a game, they make it an outright competition. Many
of us will share setups, but don't expect it from people on a mission.
Actually don't EXPECT anything from ANYONE. Rather, try asking or requesting.
Grant's request, I'm afraid, will fall on deaf ears, but those of you with
enough sense and courteousy will find plenty of help.

A new program of sorts started in ICRS this year is the idea of team ownership
and the sharing of knowledge to lesser divisions. This is illustrated no
better than it is with Paige Racing, the team in ICRS'95 Class 3, who's owner
drives in Class 1. Paige Racing driver Vince Raymond is leading in both the
ICRS points and O2M points in Class 3 due to the expert guidance of team owner
Robert Paige.

Sharing setups is alive and well, but if you're demanding it of drivers
involved in ongoing racing series, you're almost certainly out of luck.

Ralf Southard
Two Daves Racing

by **ICRS'** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>Subject: Re: Set-ups!!What's the big deal???
>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:47:51 -0400

>>=20
>> I just got this message in my mailbox which I think is pretty much
>> THE most childish thing I have ever seen. Just thought the rest
>> of you might want to know what kind of a loser we're dealing with.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Btw, this is the first 'finger' I have ever received!
>> I wonder if he made that just for me, or if he always has one
>> ready to go...just in case he doesn't like the opinions of
>> others.... ;)
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =DC=DC=DC=DC
>> =DE=DD =DE=DD
>> =DE =DD
>> =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> _ =DC=DC=DC=DC=DE=DB=B2=B2=DB=DD=DC=DC=DC=DC
>> / =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD=DB=DB=DB=
>=DB=DD=DC=DC=DC
>> =DC=DB =DC=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DD=DB=
>=DB=DB=DB=DD=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DB=DB=DB=B2=B0=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=B0=DB=DB=DB=DB=B0=
>=DB=DB=DB=DB=B0=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DB=DB=DB=B1=DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=B1=DB=DB=DB=DB=B1=DB=
>=DB=DB=DB=B1=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=B2=DB=DB=DB=DB=B2=DB=
>=DB=DB=DB=B2=DB=DB=DB=DD
>> =DF=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=
>=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DF
>> =DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=
>=DB=DB=DB
>> =DE=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=
>=DB=DB=DD
>> =DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=
>=DB
>> =DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=DB=
>=DB
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hey,*** head, I made it just for you, don't you feel better now.
> If you'd like to get The " Byron " Treatment yourself, keep it=20
> up. You won't receive any more WARNINGS
> =20
> Yea...its childish so *** OFF you ejaculated ******er.

AWWWW, Now WHAT did you have to go and ruin your own ASCII art for?
It was really pretty the first time.

Ralf

by **TOBY BRANFO** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

TN> I have no issue with sharing setups, I just don't expect anyone to
TN> get anything out of it. If anyone wants setups, I'll gladly mail
TN> them along,

It'd be great if you would!

but please don't try them, hate them, and mail me back
TN> that I'm clueless.

I wouldn't dream of it! What I might well mail you back with, having
tried your setups, is discussions about your technique. With the same
setup, at the same place, we're running equal conditions. So if I kepp
hitting the wall and you're still on line, perhaps you could help
me.....because then advice about where you turned in, how much, at what
speed/revs, etc would mean something.

I might find that your style didn't suit, or that your setups didn't
help, but this is a useful way of learning about driving these sims.

"Read the manual", "Practice", etc is NOT very constructive! B-)

Cheers!

---
* RM 1.3 U0414 * If this were a proper tagline, it might be funny.

by **TOBY BRANFO** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

BF> Paul is right...to a point. If you're looking for a good starting
BF> point though, check out the PC HOF. Look for the regular postings
BF> here from Dave Gymer as to how to obtain it/join it/etc. There are
BF> _very_ good setups in it for _qualifying_ conditions. To adapt them
BF> to your style, you will have to play around. And they _won't_ be
BF> the optimum _race_ settings, but they may point you in the right
BF> direction.

BF> So Paul's right, everyone needs to tune their setup to their own
BF> style. But these setups may at least put you in the right ballpark.
BF> It sure helped me :-)

DEAD RIGHT!!! Thank you for taking such a sensible view, rather than the
smug arrogance of the "practice and read-the-manual" school.

I also have found the F1GP HOF setups VERY useful, and an ICR collection
(at didnt.doit....?) also helpful. That's why I hoped to find equally
good Nascar help......but little luck so far.

Cheers!

---
* RM 1.3 U0414 * On the other hand, you have different fingers.

by **TOBY BRANFO** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

PB> The hints and the replays for fast laps are all available on the
PB> net, just not the exact setups. It takes a lot of time and effort to
PB> get to those levels, and believe me, if I gave you my current
PB> Milwukee hotlap setup, you wouldn't even make it one lap for the
PB> first 20 times out of pit lane...

This is a pretty arogant and unhelpful comment to make. If your setup is
so personal, why aren't all setups.....I suspect you managed to use the
ACE setup _AND_ the Fast one when you first started, so why not others?

Someone posted his Michigan setups (sorry, I didn't note your
name....VERY helpful!) and I found them very interesting to try. Yes, I
hit the wall sometimes (a lot in fact), but I also went faster, and
comparing the setups, and the handling I can learn why.

There are some very useful ICR setups in one of the net archives, and
F1GP players don't take this secretive/elitist view - I've found all of
their setups VERY useful, though sometimes a little undriveable at
first. A pity Nascar isn't developing the same attitude!

PB> get busy - test - experiment, check tire temps, look at replays

PB> the tools are out there, the hints are, the replays are.

Amazing as it may seem, most real racing drivers or riders don't work in
isolation.....they swap information about etc as when it suits - both
within teams and without. In F1, Alesi and Berger drive VERY
differently, but each drivers setups can help the other. There is NO
competition here, so why not be a little less smug and a little more
helpful?

Cheers
--+------
|++|+++

-------+
---
* RM 1.3 U0414 * (D)inner not ready: (A)bort (R)etry (P)izza

by **u..** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

: >Subject: Re: Set-ups!!What's the big deal???
: >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:47:51 -0400

: >>=20
: >> I just got this message in my mailbox which I think is pretty much
: >> THE most childish thing I have ever seen. Just thought the rest
: >> of you might want to know what kind of a loser we're dealing with.
: >>=20
: >>=20
: >> Btw, this is the first 'finger' I have ever received!
: >> I wonder if he made that just for me, or if he always has one
: >> ready to go...just in case he doesn't like the opinions of
: >> others.... ;)

: >> Hey,*** head, I made it just for you, don't you feel better now.

: > If you'd like to get The " Byron " Treatment yourself, keep it=20
: > up. You won't receive any more WARNINGS
: > =20
: > Yea...its childish so *** OFF you ejaculated ******er.

: AWWWW, Now WHAT did you have to go and ruin your own ASCII art for?
: It was really pretty the first time.

hehe

: Ralf

Hmmm... with all these fingers going around, maybe we should email Grant's
pretty (ugly) ascii art to his system administrator. If grant doesn't
wise up, he might have his account terminated unless he IS the
system administrator but I doubt that.

Ujjal Bansel
**Mad Yank's Racing**

by **Stuart Boo** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>It's not in the manual

[munch]

Very true! It's not just the doing that makes a difference it's the
WHY a change of suspension affects the car that I'd also want to know.
Etc. Some details on things like this are what I'd want out of a
manual. BTW, I know diddly-squat about driving cars, having only just
past my driving test with no intentions of ever driving again. But I
love Nascar/ICR etc!!!!!

Stuart.

PS. Peter, I've been downloading some of your ICR95 pictures
occasionally and wondered if I'd missed some sort of single index of
thumbnails anywhere?
Stuart Booth
Transport Routeing Software

by **Stuart Boo** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

>I had heard the problem in the UK was a tendency to drive clockwise >:>

You mean to say that you don't?! Awww, sh*t, THAT'S what's wrong with
my car setup... the stagger's the wrong way round. d8-))

Stuart.

Stuart Booth
Transport Routeing Software

by **Darrel David Cher** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

: PB> Milwukee hotlap setup, you wouldn't even make it one lap for the
: PB> first 20 times out of pit lane...

: This is a pretty arogant and unhelpful comment to make.

It's DAMN true! If you don't believe it, too bad. When competing
at Milwaukee, my teammate Terje sent me his 182.7mph setup, and
I, being one that holds numerous Internet records, could not for the
life of me finish even *ONE* lap on his setup. I had to change it
completely. As I got up to speed, I kept changing my setup to squeeze
a little more speed out, and eventually I ended up with a setup almost
identical to the original one he sent me and a lap time of 182.4. Note,
my time before this was about 181.5, so I was already "up to speed".
This is me though, and I put hours of testing to get to that point.

: If your setup is
: so personal, why aren't all setups.....I suspect you managed to use the
: ACE setup _AND_ the Fast one when you first started, so why not others?

What are you talking about? If Peter's setup is personal why aren't
everyones? Well, quite obviously, Peter (as well as all the the IICC
drivers) spend hours getting that setup fine-tuned, and they are all
FAST, so of course someone who spent 15 minutes and has a crappy setup
would love to share his setup with the world to get one that someone
spent days on.

: PB> get busy - test - experiment, check tire temps, look at replays
: PB> the tools are out there, the hints are, the replays are.
: Amazing as it may seem, most real racing drivers or riders don't work in
: isolation.....they swap information about etc as when it suits - both
: within teams and without. In F1, Alesi and Berger drive VERY
: differently, but each drivers setups can help the other. There is NO
: competition here, so why not be a little less smug and a little more
: helpful?

Well, those of us who do compete share info all the time - not exact
setups, though, that's stupid. You obviously do not compete, so you're
making a claim you know nothing about implying we work in isolation.
I don't follow F1, but I would highly doubt that those guys give away
their complete setups.
And, YES there is competition here, i.e. IICC, ICRS....
And, YES, we do help alot people get up to speed, but when people whine,
"hey just give us your setup or you're a jerk", it really gets on our
nerves, especially after we make a big effort to help the masses in
the first place - making all our replays and pre-race hints public.

Darrel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darrel Cherry
San Jose State University - Math/Computer Science Dept.

web: http://www.isc.sjsu.edu/b/t/dcherry/public_html
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Uhh, no you got the wrong number....this is 91..2
- Chief Wiggum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

by **Darrel David Cher** » Mon, 26 Jun 1995 04:00:00

: "Read the manual", "Practice", etc is NOT very constructive! B-)

I never say read the manual, I never used it and don't think it's too
helpful.
But, dude, if you want to go fast w/o putting in any practice, you're
totally fooling yourself. How do you think we ALL go fast, from PRACTICE!

Darrel
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darrel Cherry
San Jose State University - Math/Computer Science Dept.

web: http://www.isc.sjsu.edu/b/t/dcherry/public_html
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Uhh, no you got the wrong number....this is 91..2
- Chief Wiggum
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

by **mdonn..** » Tue, 27 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> I have no issue with sharing setups, I just don't expect anyone to get
> anything out of it. If anyone wants setups, I'll gladly mail them
> along, but please don't try them, hate them, and mail me back that I'm
> clueless.
> Last night 2 of us did an empirical test: downloaded a setup for
> Atlanta from Papyrus's board, went to preseason test, set the cars to
> be identical, fixed the weather to be identical, on 2 computers
> (486100mhz notebooks) that were identical, and raced...Both Scott and I
> are equivalently experienced drivers. He complained constantly (sorta
> sounded like Gordon) that for the first 10 laps, the car was wicked
> loose...I thought it was fine. At lap 52, my tars started to go away
> and it developed a hideous push, and I started to whine. Scott's tires
> came in. He ran 76 laps to a fuel stop..I had to stop at 63.
> It's definitely a combination of driver and setup that makes it work.

I'm glad someone did the testing to determine this (other than myself).
I've said it all along that it's and independant feel of the car that
makes the setup matter - one of driver preference and STYLE. I am so
glad that you just confirmed it.

Mike

by **mdonn..** » Tue, 27 Jun 1995 04:00:00

> [munch]

> Very true! It's not just the doing that makes a difference it's the
> WHY a change of suspension affects the car that I'd also want to know.
> Etc. Some details on things like this are what I'd want out of a
> manual. BTW, I know diddly-squat about driving cars, having only just

Most of us don't know a whole lot about driving *real* cars. One of the
more helpful places that I've turned is to the Circle Track Annual
edition '95. It has some great articles on tire temps and how to read
them and the use of cross weight. Also a few driving tips that are
pretty usefull. Gave me enough MPH to go from backmarker to polesitter
at Bristol.

Mike