rec.autos.simulators

by **Haybail** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 06:09:18

A while back, might have been as much as a month and a half ago, someone submitted a post which basically stated that Racing sims
really have no where else to improve. Now, I race solely in the Papyrus NASCAR Sim ... so, forgive me if this doesn't fit everyone's
experience. But, I can think of one huge area where further work could be spent ... and I submit this idea not sarcastically, but,
seriously;

We need a dynamic intelligent interactive crew chief.

I race solely Online ... and when I get to places like Bristol, I can pretty much forget about dialing in the car once the race has
started. Besides ... I'm really not a set-up guru. So, what I need is a "Crew Chief" which can query me in straight forward Yes/No
questions and intelligently react to my Yes/No answer. So, I should be able to hit a key (while I'm racing) to open up a
"communications channel" to the "Crew Chief" and then it should start asking me questions. Like this:

Too Loose?
Yes.
Loose entering?
No.
Loose exiting?
Yes.
Would you like us to adjust the "xyz" by "xxx"?
No.
Would you like us to adjust the "abc" by "aaa"?
Yes.

Or something like that. Understand what I'm getting at? So, there might be 25 guys racing at Bristol, all with the same game loaded,
starting with the exact same setup and using the exact same "crew chief" code ... and finish the race with 25 different setups.
There are a few "Quick Fix" guides which I've seen around the net ... and don't get me wrong ... they all help. But, I'm not able to
consult them when I'm racing ... and I simply have gotten all the "fixes" memorized.

What do you folks think? Is this a valid suggestion and a possible thing to code into the game?

db

by **P.C. Oxfor** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:53:57

Great Idea! And probably close to what happens in real racing. You suspect
that not all the NASCAR drivers are 'setup gurus' either.

submitted a post which basically stated that Racing sims
NASCAR Sim ... so, forgive me if this doesn't fit everyone's
spent ... and I submit this idea not sarcastically, but,
pretty much forget about dialing in the car once the race has
"Crew Chief" which can query me in straight forward Yes/No
able to hit a key (while I'm racing) to open up a
asking me questions. Like this:
25 guys racing at Bristol, all with the same game loaded,
code ... and finish the race with 25 different setups.
don't get me wrong ... they all help. But, I'm not able to
to code into the game?

by **bertr** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:40:00

I think that the old CART Precision Racing had a feature similar to this, but not during the race. So, it's probably something that
could be done.

> A while back, might have been as much as a month and a half ago, someone submitted a post which basically stated that Racing sims
> really have no where else to improve. Now, I race solely in the Papyrus NASCAR Sim ... so, forgive me if this doesn't fit everyone's
> experience. But, I can think of one huge area where further work could be spent ... and I submit this idea not sarcastically, but,
> seriously;

> We need a dynamic intelligent interactive crew chief.

> I race solely Online ... and when I get to places like Bristol, I can pretty much forget about dialing in the car once the race has
> started. Besides ... I'm really not a set-up guru. So, what I need is a "Crew Chief" which can query me in straight forward Yes/No
> questions and intelligently react to my Yes/No answer. So, I should be able to hit a key (while I'm racing) to open up a
> "communications channel" to the "Crew Chief" and then it should start asking me questions. Like this:

> Too Loose?
> Yes.
> Loose entering?
> No.
> Loose exiting?
> Yes.
> Would you like us to adjust the "xyz" by "xxx"?
> No.
> Would you like us to adjust the "abc" by "aaa"?
> Yes.

> Or something like that. Understand what I'm getting at? So, there might be 25 guys racing at Bristol, all with the same game loaded,
> starting with the exact same setup and using the exact same "crew chief" code ... and finish the race with 25 different setups.
> There are a few "Quick Fix" guides which I've seen around the net ... and don't get me wrong ... they all help. But, I'm not able to
> consult them when I'm racing ... and I simply have gotten all the "fixes" memorized.

> What do you folks think? Is this a valid suggestion and a possible thing to code into the game?

> db

by **J. Todd Wass** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:14:24

I think it could be done fairly well. Of course, once you start trying to
write it, things sometimes change in a hurry lol

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

by ss » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:18:55

Fascinating idea. Seems that it would be easy enough to set up a relatively
'fixed' exhange where your 'crew chief' always asked the same basic
questions about the car being, for instance, too loose... or having too much
oversteer/understeer... pulling to the left/right... etc. But imagine if
the game code actually allowed for 'intelligent' monitoring of your car's
performance in real time against a set of benchmarks for a given track.
Taking into account entry and exit speed through each turn, top speed
through various track sections, deviation from 'ideal' line, deviation from
'ideal' apex, amount of tire spin and tire lockup and where they are
occuring on the track, relative tire temperatures, etc., it seems that it
would be possible for the game to make more 'intelligent' suggestions to
help dial in a setup that matched up with a driver's style.

Sometimes it's great to know nothing about coding.... let's me imagine that
anything might be possible. :-)

Itazura

by **Schum** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:32:11

In all honesty, what you are suggesting is something far more difficult than
you might imagine. The person who could code that would basically put crew
chiefs out of a job in real life. The problem is that for certain anomalies
in handling, 6 different settings could be changed (you can get rid of
oversteer by adjusting a wide number of different settings as an example).
The trick is to make the right decision, which will not adversely affect
other handling characteristics. In an easy world (which it is not) it would
only be 1 setting you change. In real-life applications, it can be a fine
balance of combination settings for multiple parameters.

Of course there is no set formula to match your driving style, and this
process would *still* require some trial and error. Which at the end of the
day brings you right back to were we are now; Practicing, tweaking,
practicing, tweaking... Even the computer would need to make quasi-drastic
mistakes to learn the better solution in short periods of time.

Although, I do not truly feel the idea you have is without any merit. Indeed
I believe it has a lot of merit, and it is something that Relay is working
on (in parallel terms).

What if instead of the computer auto-configuring.... you had another "real
person" on the other end of the in-game voice communications? This person
would them adjust your settings based on your on-track feedback, and have
those changes waiting for you the next stop. This person is your real-time
virtua crew chief.

That virtua crew chief on the other end of the mic might also be viewing
your in-car cam over the net, and watching real-time telemetry through
something like Relay TV.

We have the codebase working for a large portion of the requirements to make
it happen, it simply would require the developers to step up and allow
official support/cooperation.

Anyways... you touched on something we've been working on for a while, so I
thought I'd pop in and throw out some things to chew on.

Cheers,
Schumi

submitted a post which basically stated that Racing sims
NASCAR Sim ... so, forgive me if this doesn't fit everyone's
spent ... and I submit this idea not sarcastically, but,
pretty much forget about dialing in the car once the race has
"Crew Chief" which can query me in straight forward Yes/No
able to hit a key (while I'm racing) to open up a
asking me questions. Like this:
25 guys racing at Bristol, all with the same game loaded,
code ... and finish the race with 25 different setups.
don't get me wrong ... they all help. But, I'm not able to
to code into the game?

by **Gerald Moo** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:23:44

> We need a dynamic intelligent interactive crew chief.

Here is an area with some good possibilities. I'd especially like it
if it would say from time to time: "Quit whining about the car and
learn to drive, you moron!" I need that a lot.

I all seriousness though, yes I think this is a good idea. Someone
else mentioned it a while back in the N5 wish list thread, btw.

Whether or not this kind of thing can be coded in such a way as to
work well without impacting the rest of the code or performance is
probably only a matter of time and money.

Gerald

by **Dave Henri** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 22:43:13

"Schumi" <
Well here is a possible avenue to achieve that....do not have just one
crew chief, but rather a group of chief's that all have different
tendancies. One might be more likely to use air pressure, another trackbar
adjustments...as a driver you would have to find one of the many who SEEMS
to understand you, then in the game you hire him. But yes it really would
be a tough programming chore.
I can already hear the possible belly aching tho...
"Man I was leading a t Bristol, and called in for a small change...when I

computer!!"
dave henrie

> Of course there is no set formula to match your driving style, and this
> process would *still* require some trial and error. Which at the end of
the
> day brings you right back to were we are now; Practicing, tweaking,
> practicing, tweaking... Even the computer would need to make quasi-drastic
> mistakes to learn the better solution in short periods of time.

> Although, I do not truly feel the idea you have is without any merit.
Indeed
> I believe it has a lot of merit, and it is something that Relay is working
> on (in parallel terms).

> What if instead of the computer auto-configuring.... you had another "real
> person" on the other end of the in-game voice communications? This person
> would them adjust your settings based on your on-track feedback, and have
> those changes waiting for you the next stop. This person is your real-time
> virtua crew chief.

> That virtua crew chief on the other end of the mic might also be viewing
> your in-car cam over the net, and watching real-time telemetry through
> something like Relay TV.

> We have the codebase working for a large portion of the requirements to
make
> it happen, it simply would require the developers to step up and allow
> official support/cooperation.

> Anyways... you touched on something we've been working on for a while, so
I
> thought I'd pop in and throw out some things to chew on.

> Cheers,
> Schumi

> > A while back, might have been as much as a month and a half ago, someone
> submitted a post which basically stated that Racing sims
> > really have no where else to improve. Now, I race solely in the Papyrus
> NASCAR Sim ... so, forgive me if this doesn't fit everyone's
> > experience. But, I can think of one huge area where further work could
be
> spent ... and I submit this idea not sarcastically, but,
> > seriously;

> > We need a dynamic intelligent interactive crew chief.

> > I race solely Online ... and when I get to places like Bristol, I can
> pretty much forget about dialing in the car once the race has
> > started. Besides ... I'm really not a set-up guru. So, what I need is a
> "Crew Chief" which can query me in straight forward Yes/No
> > questions and intelligently react to my Yes/No answer. So, I should be
> able to hit a key (while I'm racing) to open up a
> > "communications channel" to the "Crew Chief" and then it should start
> asking me questions. Like this:

> > Too Loose?
> > Yes.
> > Loose entering?
> > No.
> > Loose exiting?
> > Yes.
> > Would you like us to adjust the "xyz" by "xxx"?
> > No.
> > Would you like us to adjust the "abc" by "aaa"?
> > Yes.

> > Or something like that. Understand what I'm getting at? So, there might
be
> 25 guys racing at Bristol, all with the same game loaded,
> > starting with the exact same setup and using the exact same "crew chief"
> code ... and finish the race with 25 different setups.
> > There are a few "Quick Fix" guides which I've seen around the net ...
and
> don't get me wrong ... they all help. But, I'm not able to
> > consult them when I'm racing ... and I simply have gotten all the
"fixes"
> memorized.

> > What do you folks think? Is this a valid suggestion and a possible thing
> to code into the game?

> > db

by **Ruud van Ga** » Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:08:32

>> We need a dynamic intelligent interactive crew chief.

>Here is an area with some good possibilities. I'd especially like it
>if it would say from time to time: "Quit whining about the car and
>learn to drive, you moron!" I need that a lot.

OMG, "Simcopter 1 reporting heavy traffic"-trauma alert! ;-)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

by **Tom Pabs** » Thu, 11 Apr 2002 00:44:11

I think this is not such a good idea.

Why is it that we cry about "realism".....want it for our racing
simulations, but then don't want to do any work to become better drivers,
more knowledgeable drivers. This might be something good for "arcade mode"
racing for those who just want to "play" with our good racing sims, and
nothing else.....let the computer do it for me.....let the "computer" make
me a Jeff Gordon!

There's a very limited number of things you can change in a WC car from the
pits during a race. It might take you all of two hours to practice and test
them....to figure out what they do and in what way. There's literally
dozens of "guides" on the topic of setups for you to reference, in addition
to a very good (but not perfect) guide built into N2K2 to give the driver
basic information about setup parameter changes. This is not hard. I think
the term, "setup guru" is way over-used.....applied too many times to
someone who has simply taken the time to learn and understand the basics of
the race car setup parameters. That's an important part of the character of
a "racing simulation".....should be part and parcel to its appeal.

Why should the drivers who take the time to learn about racing......have
that competitive edge removed from them by the computer......supporting
those who don't/can't take the time to do the same? Maybe we should have
the computer do the driving for you, too?

If you can't/don't want to/won't learn about the basics of race car
setups....run in "fixed setup" races....that's what they are for!

Tom

submitted a post which basically stated that Racing sims
NASCAR Sim ... so, forgive me if this doesn't fit everyone's
spent ... and I submit this idea not sarcastically, but,
pretty much forget about dialing in the car once the race has
"Crew Chief" which can query me in straight forward Yes/No
able to hit a key (while I'm racing) to open up a
asking me questions. Like this:
25 guys racing at Bristol, all with the same game loaded,
code ... and finish the race with 25 different setups.
don't get me wrong ... they all help. But, I'm not able to
to code into the game?

by **John Smi** » Thu, 11 Apr 2002 01:44:41

Taking things another step, think about having one person online as the
driver, and one person online as the drivers crew chief/and or spotter.The
crew chief would set what would be done on the next pitstop, and that info
would be relayed to the drivers computer to be done when they came in. You
could make it mostly text based messaging between the driver and crew
chief, and wouldnt have to have the hi graphics that the driver has, to
save bandwidth.

by **Isotrip** » Thu, 11 Apr 2002 02:58:27

"You could make it mostly text based messaging between the driver and crew
chief, and wouldnt have to have the hi graphics that the driver has, to save
bandwidth."

When I am on the track I type as little as possible. No way would I want to
type out all the info to a "remote" Crew chief. And IMO it sounds like it
wouldn't be all that exciting for the guy that has to be the crew chief.

- Isotrip?

by **Schum** » Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:14:38

What if the communication was done over real-time voice, and the crew chief
could watch the other person drive from multiple angles in real-time, and
could also view the real-time telemetry?

Do you think that would make him bored? It's being developed (half done
already).

Cheers,
Schumi

> "You could make it mostly text based messaging between the driver and crew
> chief, and wouldnt have to have the hi graphics that the driver has, to
save
> bandwidth."

> When I am on the track I type as little as possible. No way would I want
to
> type out all the info to a "remote" Crew chief. And IMO it sounds like it
> wouldn't be all that exciting for the guy that has to be the crew chief.

> - Isotrip?

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 11 Apr 2002 04:21:45

> I think this is not such a good idea.

> Why is it that we cry about "realism".....want it for our racing
> simulations, but then don't want to do any work to become better drivers,
> more knowledgeable drivers. This might be something good for "arcade mode"
> racing for those who just want to "play" with our good racing sims, and
> nothing else.....let the computer do it for me.....let the "computer" make
> me a Jeff Gordon!

My intepretation was that the idea was to "simulate" the dialogue between driver
& race engineer.

Currently our sims require both driver & engineer simulation.

The suggestion was that you just simulate the driver aspect and discuss with the
race engineer how to adjust the car. I am sure not all drivers are qualified
race engineers are they?

Tony

by **Tony Whitle** » Thu, 11 Apr 2002 05:02:14

"Tony Rickard" wrote...

> > I think this is not such a good idea.

> > Why is it that we cry about "realism".....want it for our racing
> > simulations, but then don't want to do any work to become better
drivers,
> > more knowledgeable drivers. This might be something good for "arcade
mode"
> > racing for those who just want to "play" with our good racing sims, and
> > nothing else.....let the computer do it for me.....let the "computer"
make
> > me a Jeff Gordon!

> My intepretation was that the idea was to "simulate" the dialogue between
driver
> & race engineer.

> Currently our sims require both driver & engineer simulation.

> The suggestion was that you just simulate the driver aspect and discuss
with the
> race engineer how to adjust the car. I am sure not all drivers are
qualified
> race engineers are they?

I'm definitely in favour of this. I'm reasonably good at mechanical things
but I don't want to bother when I'm playing a racing game - I just want to
race. I suspect the obsession with set-ups is an American thing born out of
oval racing where it's more important than anything else.

As for real racers, Jim Clark was notorious for just driving whatever he was
given. Colin Chapman used to get really frustrated that he got no feedback
about the changes he made, whatever he did to the car Jim drove it just as
quickly. Today's drivers may be a little more aware but they have even more
engineering support than ever.

I can't see that it's that difficult to do (and I'm a software engineer by
trade), but whether it can be done well I don't know. I'm sure it's no more
complicated than all the wonderful work being done by the physics gurus.

Tony Whitley

rec.autos.simulators

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