rec.autos.simulators

Remember, it is a game.  We want it to be as realistic as possible for our
own individual reasons and that also includes our own individual level of
realism.

Each driver has played with the options, learned and subsequently become
comfortable with the way they drive.  Thus experience, no matter the
settings, is what makes good racing.

--
McWhom
-----------------------------------------------------------------

:

It's up.

The fact of the matter is, the kind of entertainment you get out of sim
racing is up to you and only you. If you want to play on the roof as I do,
great. If you want to play in the***pit, thats great too. The arguement
about whether its far or not, well, no applicable in RASCAR because we just
want to race and have fun. We do honor someone's wish to run in the***pit
view by respecting there request to pace in a straight line and things such
as that.

Now, while you realist are driving around in the***pit mode, I am fixin'
to go out and pay someone to fix me up a short block for my ford 2000.  The
last one I built ate the rod bearings and crank. :(

I'm living the real thing (and enjoying it), but I think you realist sim
guys are smarter .  :)

grub

When youre out front all the time the liklihood of getting wrecked is
greatly diminished.  No Ive never been that fast nor do I question your
abilities John but we run fixed setups for fairness right?  Some just dont
have the time to make their own setups.  This is my point here, fairness.
Yes I know
it's a two way street.

I run with smoke on so I usually see up ahead just fine.  I do have a few
issues with racing back to the line.  It's absolutely nothing but a giant
cluster*** and the main reason guys dont FN slow down when wrecks happen.
I noticed Eldred was none to happy 'bout it either on sat.  We need a no
racing rule if this thread accomplishes nothing else.

Absolutely not.  I have confidence in your driving whether on the roof or
not.  Its not about driving ability its about fairness.

The last lap at PMP was me srewing the pooch entering T4.  I was too fn busy
watching you in the mirror and overshot the entry pushing up the track bad.
I did completely let off after taking the white flag, stricly a brain fart
on my part althought you could feasibly blame the number of yellow laps for
the lack of my concentration at that point.
That didnt bother me though cause of all the BS prior to the last lap.

Racing is racing.  I will run some hard and others not so hard.  Depends on
the situation.

I have never driven a stocker at speed but I have sat in one.  Peripheral
vision is
severly hampered, unlike your view from the roof.  There would be no need
for spotters if they rode the roof <g>

Im not proclaiming anyone is a moron, well maybe a few but thats a different
thread altogether <g>.

As Ive said before I believe we need to be a little harder on the rooks just
so we dont have to spend countless laps under caution cause they cant turn a
fn lap while alone on the track.  Aids rarely make a driver a better racer
just faster.

Here I do have issues.  Over time you have taken the job of series admin.
This is just fine and dandy until you start making decisions about whom can
or cant run with us or how we should run.  If the majority of RAS drivers
want it one way then thats what should happen, not cause "John" wants it
that way.  Bear in mind we ALL greatly appreciate the effort you put forth
but thats because YOU chose to do the grunt work.  How that turned into a
dictatorship I dont know.  A guy back in the 30's nevermind <g>.

Don't do it E <g>

Mitch

BTW Im not just pissin and moanin here, these are points that should be
discussed.

Until virtual death and injury is included in these GAMES, stop complaining
about lack of realism or players circumventing realism in the game itself.

(Even million-dollar flight simulators allow the crew to walk away from a
disaster).

Bruce.

No, I'll carry on putting across my POV.

Really, do they! How unrealistic!!

Gerry

Bruce.

Less hard up, anyway.

Jan.
=---

OF COURSE it's only a game.  So is football.  So is "real" motorsport.
 It's for fun.

Games, sports - they are all competitions.  Once people start bending
or breaking rules to gain an advantage, the "game" ceases to become
fun.  Now, as far as I'm concerned, with N2K3, if it's in the game
it's not cheating.  But I do get a tad frustrated when I've practised
my "game" in order to be able to drive consistently then someone else
comes along using driving aids and whips my butt.  We have a front
runner in our league who uses aids.  He's great out in front, and if
he's there he never makes a mistake.  His racecraft leaves a lot to be
desired but he's a fast lapper,  He claims the car is "undriveable"
without the aids.  But I get by OK.  I've put in the effort.  As with
ANY sport or game, the more you put in, the more you get out.

I like not using any aids.  I like knowing that wherever I'm placed in
a race, be it first or last, it's been, as far as possible, my own
hard work that's got me there.  YES!  Hard work CAN equate to fun!  If
I've had a race long battle for position (wherever it is in the
field), I can finish dripping with sweat due to the intensity.  And
it's a FANTASTIC feeling.  Just because I'm not gonna end up in
hospital or the morgue if I crash, doesn't mean I am not *actually*
racing.  The fact that the arena is virtual is completely irrelevant.
Taking the sim-racing seriously CAN add to the fun!  I am disappointed
if I spin out, I am gutted if I take someone else out and by the same
token I am ecstatic if I get a good position.  It's like the honour
system.  I treat the events with as much respect as if they were real
and I get the personal gratification when it all comes good.

Did I say condense?  I went off on one again... ;-)

Getting back to the viewpoint issue.  I use as few aids as possible
because THAT'S WHAT I ENJOY!  I use the***pit view BECAUSE THAT'S
WHAT I ENJOY!  I'm not on some quest to appear superior, I just want
to enjoy my simracing my way.  I'm not *against* roof-riders, kite
flyers, or those who use stability control, steering assist, or
whatever.  People obviously get different things out of their sims.  I
like the***pit view - It's where I drive from in *any* sim / game.
It happens to be the only place I can drive from.  I have no idea what
the car is doing otherwise.

I can sympathise with the view of those who would like a *** mode
to be considered.  The FACT is that it will level that playing field.
Level playing fields with hard and fast rules make for more fun games,
IMO.

Having said that, although my preference of for ***, I would not
inflict it on our main Saturday event but I may propose a midweek
season that is more restrictive once that patch comes out.

Realistic or not, I want my simming experience to be as immersive as
is reasonable.  That means I've paid out on half decent PC hardware to
get a OK graphical representation of my surroundings.  I've paid for
half-decent wheels, pedals and shifter.  I pay for ADSL connection
speed.  I pay for server hire costs so that I have others to race
against.  I've gone as far as my budget will allow.  Doesn't get much
more "real" than cash-money, does it?

I have *not* switched on a heater by my feet.  I have *not* employed
someone to hit me with a 2x4 upside my head whenever I hit the wall.
I do *not* burn oil and *** in the corner of the room for added
"atmosphere".  These are, IMO, unreasonable additions as they are
outside of the simracing realm.

Point laboured enough, I guess :)

Regards,

Mark
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Me thinks you misread my posts intent.
;-)
--
McWhom
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"grub"

<big ol snip>
:
: As Ive said before I believe we need to be a little harder on the rooks
just
: so we dont have to spend countless laps under caution cause they cant turn
a
: fn lap while alone on the track.  Aids rarely make a driver a better racer
: just faster.
:
:

Well, as a rook ;-),  I turned on both traction control and stability for
NH.  I just could not drive that track.  I can drive phoenix and have a
blast and it is a flat track so I don't know??
It definetly did not make me faster, but I could turn those damn corners and
did not wreck anyone.  At least not that I have been ***ed at about,
course two restarts on the inside was enough for me, the second one was
waaaaayyyy hairy and I thought I caused the wreck up high in the first turn
but on my replay it looks like that happened on it's own.  Anyway, two
restarts up there was enough, I was happy just to stay on the track in the
back of the field.

Laps is what it is all about, gotta keep turnin 'em.  I learned a lot about
getting around there by being able to watch other drivers(who's style I am
starting to recognize), and see how they handled late entry, too fast
etc....

For me, the closest simulation I can attain is my aim.  Simulation!  I
personally never liked the arcade systems and the default roof riding view.
I like looking through the windshield  :-)  As far as the cars around me?
Hell boys, the last two races I watched qual times on tv, papy, and rascar.
Guess what, you sim boys are faster than the real guys.  hmm, yeah,
realistic, ok,,,right     <Eg>  Maybe when I get fast enough to think I
could win I will feel differently but.....As long as the guys/gals I am
racing are making the same effort I am to get around the track  fast
without wrecking themselves, let alone anyone else then that will be a good
race.  Use what gets you around the track fast and safe.

: > Absolutely not. If you want ***, find it in another league, but
: > RASCAR will not be using *** mode, at least not while I have any
: > input on the subject.

Devil's Advocate:  But that would be fair.  Course, so would making us ride
the roof with you be fair.

: BTW Im not just pissin and moanin here, these are points that should be
: discussed.
:
:

I would say that is happening. :-)

--
McWhom
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Achim

Achim

I'm always surprised when people say that using throttle and brake together
is 'unrealistic'. The percentages and frequency with which it's done may
differ between sims and real road or offroad cars, but it works in a real
car just as it works in Papy's sims, and when I was younger and drove my
cars on the limit more often, and cars were still rear wheel driven, I used
to practice and do it from time to time myself. To be honest, mainly after
Walter Roehrl said he's doing it a lot <g> although a few times I even did
it on motorcycles (to stabilise them when the started oscillating).

Of course it's a lot more difficult with the classical pedal layout and
without automatic transmission, so it certainly happens more often in cars
which can be left-foot braked, and the amount of throttle you'd apply
probably differs for various reasons from what Gerry refers to when he talks
about simmers doing it. And you'll probably use it offroads more than on
tarmac, and it probably also is related to how often the car slides, but it
works and is not unrealistic at all. It's just difficult to do. But nobody
really knows whether drivers like Jim Clark didn't use it as well from time
to time, maybe even subconsciously.

I know Gerry's a *** realism driver, so for him, using anything but
realistic controls diminishes the fun. But, since most online racers use
comparable controllers, the competition is still fair and on a level
playground for most of us when we use these techniques.

Achim