rec.autos.simulators

For some reason this is being hashed out in semi-private.  This is RAS for
christs sake.  Collectively WE all started this group, Eldred is so kind to
offer a server for us to run on and create maintain the invite list.
Simmons offered to take care of all the cars as he is a painter anyway.
That was about the extent of the administration of RASCAR.  Since then
Simmons has re-read Mein-Kampf and usurped some sort of dictatorship out of
what was once a democracy.   He's now decided its his rules or the hiway.
Now I can understand a couple rules to help improve the racing and cut down
cautions.  Thats sure not how the Furher errr Simmons see's it.  We all know
John's Obsessive compulsive tendancies (OCD) towards painting cars and
chatting now there will be points deductions for both of those (so called
offenses).  Why we have to go so far overboard I don't know, but none of it
is going to give us any better racing, but it sure will inflate the admins
egos.  He alos has problems with any rule that will prevent him from
indiscriminately passing cars while taking the yellow flag (which imo has
caused more problems in RAS than anything).  I want a points system and some
accountability for your on track actions not a bunch of nonsensical rules
that won't do anything but cause a mass exodus from RASCAR.  Weve already
lost Tim, Ed, and Im sure a few others that havent said anything publically.
Neil has stated he'll also depart along with myself if these rules go into
effect.  This has gone WAY too far....  "I'm mad as hell and Im not going to
take it anymore"  EVERYONE, "I'm mad as hell and Im not going to take it
anymore".  <G>

All this being said I do like John and respect all the effort he's
voluntarily accepted.  He's just going way to far with this.

John's proposed rules/points deducts can be viewed here
http://www.racesimcentral.net/;Remember I dont have issues with
rules, just rules that are based on judgement calls instead of black and
white issues.

Mitch

At least if Im going Im going out a whiner errr winner <g>

Curious - which rules do you disagree with, and why?

Aren't 'all' rules judgement calls when they're created?  Someone thinks "this
is the way we should do things", so they create rules...

Eldred
--
Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my
homepage)
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I know it's nothing to do with me, but I just can't help myself...;)

From the rules .."For god's sake, it's just a game. Try not to get all "head
up" if someone wrecks you."

This coming from Simmons is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Great stuff.

Right or wrong, I pressed the limits of good will and it was my choice to make.
I respect Eldred and John, and I feel very strongly more leagues should try
harder to please the novice driver the way RASCAR does.

--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com

I don't want either you or Dave to quit (or Mitch for that matter).
You weren't banned, you were just suspended for one race. Your name
(and Dave's) is still in the invite list just in case you decide you
made a rash decision.

And that's all that was needed until things got a little out of hand
at Pocono.  Remember, everyone wanted cleaner racing,and the only way
to promte that and still leave the league open for rookies is to
impose a more strict set of rules.

That's not true at all Mitch.  I had a set of rules handy that worked
out quite well in previous leagues that I had run, soI used them as a
basis for RASCAR.  Nothing is cast in stone yet, and there's open
discussion going on with people that care to.  How is that "my way or
the highway"?

Can you think of a better way to identify problems?  If someone
continually breaks the rules, they either can't read, or don't care.
If I wanted to race with either type of person, I'd be racing in 5%
pickup races. You have to do something truly bad to get an outright
bad, and the stuff I've proposed will help keep the noise level to a
minimum here on r.a.s., something I'm sure all non-RASCAR members
will appreciate.

Let's talk about judgement calls.

You and Ed must be really close friends.

Well, if you call two (I don't count Tim as quitting because of the
rules because he said he quit long before the proposed ruleset was
posted the first time) people quitting because of the proposed rules
changes a mass exodus, you must thing six inches is actually closer
to 12...

I think many of the members of the soon to be mass exodus are waiting
to see what happens and if it actually improves the racing.

I don't think he's actually definitively said he'd quit. At least,
that's not how I took it.

Judgement call...

My position is as John describes it. I feel really uncomfortable with the
new regime and I'm not that confident it will do anything to help either
racing or camaraderie. However, this may seem incredible but I've actually
been wrong before ;)  What I plan to do is to see what the final rules come
out like and then see how they actually 'feel' for one or two races. If I'm
as uncomfortable with the atmosphere as I suspect I will be, I'll then go
quietly.

Until then, I'll watch and see. What is clear after recent races is that
something has to be done to up the 'fun factor'. Even if the decided
solution doesn't suit me personally it may still achieve what the majority
want. Don't suppose I could suggest turning off the yellow flags <g>.

Regards

[snip]
[snip]

ZZBusch

Thx

Richard "ZZ" Busch

Having said that... there's no way I would have continued if the currently
proposed ruleset were to be it...  I think John (I do say John 'cause those
rules are mainly his work and suggestions) put way too much to effort into
policing insignificant details rather than solving the real problem.
Getting rid of chit-chat, "complaints" on RAS or getting people to drive the
correct car - will not reduce the number of yellows!

Anyway...  good luck with whatever you all choose to do, I'm out - for now.

--
ed_

-----------------------------------------------
$10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC

<snip>

What it's likely to do is get people complaining that they are being
victimised when a call goes against them.  Though, if complaining on RAS
is one of the no-no's, then I'm not sure where they should do that
complaining (Surely you made that one up Ed).  The more rules you have,
the more grey areas you're going to have to deal with.

However, if things don't work out and people aren't happy, then things
can always be changed again.  Can't they?  :)
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

Like I said many times before, the rulesa are based on what I used
for a GPL points league several years ago. Our races were some of the
cleanest you'd ever want to see.  One of the rules was no chatting.
That (and heavy points penalties for doing stupid shit) helped keep
wrecks to a minimum.

The rule about public complaints and squabbles is, IMHO, well
justified.

Having people drive the correct car is a) an exercise in awareness
and b) to allow people to see paintjobs instead of generic cars.  
Loading the correct car also aids in resolving lineu-ups under
caution because you can usually recognize a paint scheme LONG before
you can see the number on the car.

If I thought it was a small enough issue, I wouldn't include it in
the proposed ruleset, and if I can be convinced that it doesn't
belong there, I'll be more than willing to omit it.  You are, of
course, entitled to your view that it won't help or doesn't apply to
better online racing, but the rules I've put up have a history of
working as long as they're enforced fairly and even-handedly.

Regardless of what others may think, I understand what you're doing and
don't mind. I just want to race.
Now that I've rewired my TSW, I'm much better and more consistent.

--
Richard "ZZ" Busch

I'm honestly not trying to***people off, but I'm as tired as Ed is
of the endless caution laps.  When a 40% race at Pocono lasts 3
hours, it's time to take steps.  I'm sure people are going to be
penalized for spins and wrecks. I'm sure someone's gonna make the
mistake of racing on the apron, or making an otherwise stupid passing
move.

The rules will be clearly posted, and everyone will have a chance to
stay or leave. I hope everyone stays, but at the same time, I'd
rather people that don't agree with the rules leave rather then stick
around and cause probems.

It might take a couple of races to convince everyone the rules are in
force and enforced. This learning curve will be achieved by one-race
suspensions if they earn enough penalty points in a given race. Me
and Eldred are also subject to the same rules.

I'm not known for being PC or being especially sensitive about
anyone's feelings being hurt (and I'm not planning on changing my
evil ways, either).  I call it like I see it and everyone I single-
out will have an opportunity to convince me that my assessment of
their performance was wrong.  Think of me as the embodiment of
RASCAR's big red trailer.

Precisely.