<g> ok, I got it :-)
Achim
<g> ok, I got it :-)
Achim
| "Tom Pabst" writes:
| >Reminder....I'm not asking the sim community to stop hot-lapping. I
fully
| >admit that its fun......its just not racing.
| It is not real-world racing, it is (maybe major?) part of sim racing.
|
| Well, I would say, that's the main difference between the real thing
| and the simulation:
|
| - A new car cost zero $
| - everyone is invulnerable
|
| So only the simmers can afford to go for the ultimate goal:
| To push the car to the absolute limit (of course, approaching this
| limit from BOTH sides ;)
|
| Grant these two facts in real life, and I bet we would only see
| hotlap competitions on TV!
| No one would be interested in boring 2 hour races, when you can
| get all the action packed into a single lap.
|
| Just imagine the summary on TV: You would see the perfect lap
| of the winner (takes a minute or two), <insert commercials here>,
| some overlays with the guys a bit slower to analyse where they lost
| their 1/100 seconds, <insert commercials here>,
| and finally, some laps with incredible wrecks from guys pushing too hard.
|
| >Hot-lapping is a phenomenon of
| >"simulated racing" and doesn't exist anywhere else but on computers!
|
| Yes. Simulation gives the possibility to do things you cannot do
| in real life.
|
| Why do you try to make sim racing similar to real-world racing?
|
| In sim racing there is much more freedom! No security restrictions,
| no commercial influence, no politics, no environmental considerations..
|
| Just pure racing.
|
| And if sim racing (without artificial restrictions) evolves towards
| hotlapping, then this is the way to go.
|
| >I would like to see this community stop setting some of these
"hot-lappers"
| >up on pedestals of "elite drivers"....the "cream of the top"
| >drivers.....
|
| Hmm... if the community does this, why do you think this is a bad thing?
| It's better than having someone else telling us who the elite is.
| Or someone implementing 'rules' to make sure the 'right' person wins.
| Do you want to implement some rules here???
|
| >..and start recognizing our top sim community drivers for the
| >races they win....and compete in....
|
| Maybe a win in a race says nothing about the skill of this driver?
| There are too many random things deciding about winning an online race.
| You can always be lucky and get the top drivers disco'ed, wrecked by
| some bozos, getting hit by a warp accident or whatever.
| But you cannot get a clean 1:26 second lap at Monza by accident. That is
| measureable skill. (ok, it is a different skill from the skill you need
| to win a long race, but long races are boring anyway :)
|
| If I'm going to tell you that I won a pickup race at Mosport
| last Wednesday, so what? 17 starters? What do you know now - nothing.
| When I tell you, I can do a 1:27.5 lap at Silverstone,
| you can at least guess that I put in some weeks of 'work' there,
| that I know every kink and bump there, that I have a nice
| setup fitting my driving style...
|
| >The fact is...."hot-lapping" is easy to report the statistics
for........and
| >compare people with (meaningless) numbers mistakenly thought of as
| >indicative of one's racing skills. That GPLRank web page is no different
| >than the "High Score" boxes on the top of every Arcade machine I've ever
| >seen! Its exactly the same thing! Is that a bad thing? "No."
|
| Of course, it isn't. btw: It is the same as the season point standing of
| the F1, or world cup points (or whatever you call it) of any other sport..
| These numbers are as meaningless as anything else.
|
| >...the GPLRank websites.. <snip> ..but not having anything
| >to do with racing as the real-world does it.
|
| Yes, sim racing is different from real world racing. You got it ;)
| But hotlapping is only one part of GPL sim racing. There are league races,
| pickup races, fantasy events like the land speed record attempts, ...
|
| >I have no problem with that. But, when a
| >GPLWrecker/Ranker.....wants to tout himself as a race car
driver......then
| >I'm going to object to that....because he is hurting my efforts to get
| >real-world racing to stop thinking that all we are doing is playing games
on
| >our computers!
|
| What else are we doing?
|
| What is the difference between playing computer games, playing
| simulation games, playing a racing sim, driving a racing sim?
|
| When I put 30 hours per week into playing PacMan, I'm still playing
| a computer game. After some years of doing so, it will still be
| a computer game. Of course, I'll be able to play PacMan on a rather
| professional level and only a few others will be able to compete.
|
| If you watch me for 5 minutes, you probably will think: just another
| guy playing PacMan. You need to watch for the 6 hours I get away without
| losing a single life - then you will think: Wohoo, what a performance!
|
| Calis
|
| BTW: Whenever I am in a 19starter/3finisher race, I'm one of the finisher
:)
|
|
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| Well said Peter...
| Jan.
| =---
| PS.: BTW Tom, Peter would be another one of those on that 10 good racers
| list.
|
| > <snip> I have no qualms about trying every which way I can
| > in order to determine the quickest way around each and every
| > circuit, even if that is going to mean me going off a lot more
| > often than if I was to drive a real car no doubt. That doesn't
| > mean however that, if I needed to, I and many, many other fast
| > drivers couldn't keep the car on the track at speeds pretty near
| > what we are capable of whilst 'hot-lapping'.
|
|
---
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If I was required to order them, it would take me too long for it to be an
"on the spot" list.
Jan./possibly my biggest cop-out this year. ;-)
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.
David G Fisher
> My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and
> simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form
> of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the
> skills of the real-world driver. I believe I won't get too much argument
> that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing
community,
> its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and
> corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers,
> leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing
> community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the
> order of equal stature and respect. Its no secret that I have spent the
> better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years)
> trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing.
> So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd
> benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing
drivers
> and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given!
> I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any
> member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wish
to
> do so. If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time,
> fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so. That
> includes the so called "wreckers" even! I would defend their right to
wreck
> other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" they
are
> entitled to it. They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers who
don't
> share their sense of fun. As long as the "wreckers" all race together and
> not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay
> with me!
> So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of
> this community into two general groups: Serious sim racing drivers and
> game-playing sim racing drivers. Notice, I did not say "two equal
> groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked
to
> place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group. We
> could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing
> to do with what "point" I'd like to make. Let's say, there's a
substantial
> number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing
> community I'm referring to in this post.
> So....to the point I would like to make: When someone who is engaging in
an
> activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars
> instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious
> race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I am
going
> to stand up and shout "NO." Why?
> Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activities
of
> the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect
> because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car
> drivers. I know that, but at this point, they don't know that! And, I
> can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this online
community
> keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discredits
everyone
> in the sim racing community when that happens. Or, should I say, it
> discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned.
> And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this
> community....would be good for sim racing.
> I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I. No. They are a small
> minority....true. But they are not very vocal.
> I am talking about the GPL community. Not all of its members of
> course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large
vocal
> number of them. I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but
> its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least.
> So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL sim
racing
> community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term
> I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up
> sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to be
popular.
> Well, I'm not attacking anyone.
> But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its
> members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to
> see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a
> very big favor! I don't know for sure how many others there are among you
> that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I
> know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor,
I
> think?
> Here's the favor: Please stop referring to, in public places (like this
> newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or
> the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or
> having anything to do with racing skills. I'm not asking you to stop
doing
> it. I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even! I am asking you to
> stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't. And, when members of the
> real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone
> who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge
> the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers. I don't think
> this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you.
> I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request:
> 1. In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is
> being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote
> off a web page displaying the GPLRank list: **When players reach the
magic
> sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a
> category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.** That is a
> direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website:
> http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html
> 2. Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles
> "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the
> GPLRank system list of drivers. Nobody in real-world racing could afford
to
> crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several
> thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap"
> ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent
> race driver." Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through
> such an activity, either.
> 3. The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something
that
> maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they
> do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race
> lap"......or maybe even "track record holder." But, let's be clear about
> this. No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public
> opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of
> races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race. They don't keep
> that score in real-world racing. I don't think anyone made it for having
> the most "track records" either. I know they don't put you in the hall of
> fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember
> who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course
> you also win the race on Sunday). The only thing they put you in the
"hall
> of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on
> winning/finishing position...in races).
> 4. I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I
couldn't
> find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in
ranking
> of the number of races they've won. Or, the number of podium finishes
> they've had. I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in
GPL....or
> what they do or where they race....and certainly not how they rank amongst
> themselves. I do know however, who all the best "game playing
hot-lappers"
> are. That took me just a minute or two to find. Too bad, because no one
in
> real racing cares about that....I know I certainly don't. It might be
> fun....but its not about racing.
> 5. In real-world racing.....there's a sub-amateur form of driving called
> "autocross".....and even a professional form of it in the USA, called "Pro
> Solo II" sanctioned by the SCCA. Its quite a fun activity....I've done it
> several times and its exciting and challenging...and not easy to beat the
> guys who do nothing else but autocrossing. For those of you that don't
know
> what this is.....its racing against a clock....solo....through usually a
> parking lot full of "gates" marked out by yellow or orange cones. The car
> (usually they are ranked in classes) and driver who traverse the coned
gates
> in the shortest time.....and don't knock any cones over (they penalize you
> for knocking over cones).....is declared the winner of the autocross
event.
> They have second and third places too. Sometimes, if your autocross club
> has a lot of members, they can afford to give you little trophies or
plaques
> if you come in first, second or third. I don't think anyone in real-world
> racing would confuse autocrossing with racing.....or
read more »
>Yeah, now I know why you dont improve as fast ;)
>At least I use the simulator benefit of being invulnerable
>to approach the limit from both sides.
>For me, it is not going into a turn carefully, then a bit faster,
>a bit faster, a little bit faster... until I doubt I can go another
>little bit faster.
>I prefer a kind of binary search from both sides.
>Going into a turn carefully - too slow. ok.
>Going into it carelessly - oops, too fast.
>A bit slower - ok, works.
>A bit faster - oops, too fast.
>A little bit slower - ok.
>A very little bit faster - perfekt.
Well, I should *hope* so...<g>
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Personally I felt that up to 25 minutes for a hotlapping session are
bearable, but anything beyond that requires an enormous amount of willpower.
That's actually what I respect todays top hotlappers for - their enormous
dedication and determination. Willpower.
Achim
Another example: I'm a bowler. I know people my dad's age who have been
bowling seriously for 40+ years. They may have gotten to a 180 or so average.
I reached that point in about 8 years. Does that mean I was so much better
than them? I don't think so. At the time, we were equal. The fact that I've
since gone PAST that level makes me better *now*. Totally different.
Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work? If someone practices at
their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded? A
concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/her skill.
Does that belittle the accomplishment? Apparently, only to you...
You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn't worth
mentioning. Why is that, David?
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
The tricky bit is getting the balance between hotlapping as an activity
itself (like your piano playing example) or as part of the real life
simulation some of this group are striving for. In real life there is not
the availability to practice endlessly. There are distinct time periods
available. Sure for some it is their test track, but I doesn't compare with
the amount of track time available to simmers.
Hotlapping for me equates to practice. I agree practice deserves to be
rewarded, but we have to accept that our sims differ to real life in this
respect.
Regardless I believe things like gplrank do give a reasonable comparison,
and that speed is a mixture of skill and practice. The quick drivers always
seem to set the pace in new sims in a short time frame (darn them!)
Tony
Same here, but I don't think speed is necessarily the problem more the
controller input. Rather than going in 5 mph too fast I tend to think I
pressed the brake a fraction too hard, or insufficient/too much throttle, or
missed a braking point by a fraction from the previous lap.
Watching replays of faster drivers, they tend to be quicker pretty much
everywhere. So it is not simply too fast but not having the mastery of the
control inputs.
I would find a way of being more consistent with the pedal inputs would be
more valuable to me than improving speed judgement.
Cheers
Tony
(I wish Chris Cosby would continue to broadcast SimRaces, especially NASCAR4
races),
Michael Barlow
> Mike simply asked what would it take and quite "frankly" (ouch), I don't
> have that answer. =)
> > Just also wanted to say "Hey there Mike" ;-)
> > The thing is, WHY is it necessary to make it a sport worthy of the
media?
> > It's not important. For many it's just the capitalist attraction of
money
> > that TV or any other kind of media would bring to the "sport". We
already
> > have the Internet as a form of communication to back us up, why go to
> > anything more?
So, what would it be about someone else's sim racing that does make you
interested? What gets your sim racing juices flowing, then?
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
The comparison isn't equal. Anyway, unless I had more information, I still
wouldn't know if they are a truly gifted musician, or just someone who
practices a lot.
Yes, I'm the one who started this thread.
It depends on the accomplishment. They aren't all the same. Hotlapping
charts/rankings don't tell me anything. They don't tell me the person is a
good sim driver, or that he's a bad sim driver.
David G Fisher
That being said, I use GPLRank to judge my performance. Absolutely. My buddy
list is comprised of people that I know intimately from newsgroup
discussions, people I race with often on VROC, people who's articles I read,
and Huttu. (The later simply for the purpose of shocking my heart into
action on mornings that we run out of coffee.) My fastest laps are all race
laps. That's all I do. I run race setups at racing pace. I can reproduce
every time to within a few 10ths any day. I race in two full damage leagues
and guess what? I practice with full damage, even on new tracks. Some of the
people on my buddy list do the same, some don't. I know who's who and that's
why GPLRank is a good for me. It really is a gauge for me of how well I'm
progressing. It's just like using a single lap time to see if a setup or
driving style change worked. Only longer. I think speed is definitely one of
the skills that a race car driver must possess.
Chaz Wood started a thing a couple of years ago that was really cool...
while it was... In case you are unaware, it was an invitational league. The
GPLRC I believe, and if someone suggested you be added to the list then all
you had to do was race a public race with Chaz or one of his appointees to
see if you made the cut. The only qualification was that you were clean. You
could race when ever you wanted as long as it was on the official server and
all results were compiled daily. It was excellent. I remember starting 10th
or 12th on many nights and going through Curva Grande or Eau Rouge without
seeing a single wreck. Granted, some raced more often than others, but it
was very clear who were the most successful racers. I'm not sure what
happened, but I would guess that administration got to be too much, how
could it not? In the end, the only ones who could be judged by it where the
ones racing on it. As many entrants as there were on the roster I'm sure it
left out a fair number of good, solid sim racers. If that means anything.
I have at least a little of each of the skills that you list as those
indicative of a good race driver. I know where I am weakest and try to work
on that point. When it overshadows the next point I have a new project. I
know all my league cohorts have the same skills and that they consider them
skills and think of them consciously because I have talked to them about
them. Many of us use GPLRank in many of our discussions and consider it a
great tool. We don't consider GPLRank as racing, not that I've heard
directly, but we include it in many discussions about racing. Can't see how
we'd separate it sometimes.
Some days, I don't race as clean as I would like. I'm me, a guy enjoying a
hobby and the dangers of a wreck are minimal. If I had even one sponsor, no
matter how much the deal was worth, I'd put in my best every inch of the
way. But, that simply isn't the case. I think many of us here 'race' like
that.
PS Anyone who enters any chat room or newsgroup anywhere should expect the
lowest of low. I find VROC and R.A.S. to be quite a ways above that. High
even. If you are introducing someone to an online community who has no prior
experience... a quick briefing might be in order?
--
"Racing! - Science for the action minded."
mark
<snip>
even in hotlapping ;-) there's a point where you need talent to get faster.
Even more so in order to achieve world record laptimes within the timeframe
set by the competition (i.e. not 5 years later). That's a criterion we must
not forget.
No matter how much time the hottest hotshoes practice, a day has only 24
hours, so even if they invest a lot of leisure time, I'm sure all of the top
guys do that, but still some of them are faster than others.
It's indeed a bit like with a piano player. He needs practice and talent to
be good. Those who know and understand something about music are able to
hear if he's just got fast fingers, or if he has talent, and fills the music
with life, emotion and expression.
This also applies to driving sims. If you watch how a driver drives a track,
watch how he handles the challenges the track poses, you can tell if he's
got imagination and talent, or not.
It's not all just practice :-)
Anyway, I feel that we should respect each others achievements rather than
try to create 'worthy' and 'less worthy' sim racers. We share a common
hobby, we have a lot of common interest, and I feels it's quite against our
own interest to separate the 'hotlappers' from the 'racers'. Each of us
hones his skill in the fields where he enjoys it most.
Achim
> Fisher"
> > Besides, what ever happened to rewarding hard work?
> I wouldn't consider hotlapping hard work. For example, getting up at 6 am
to
> work all day with patients at a children's cancer hospital is hard work,
> mentally, emotionally, and physically.
> >If someone practices at
> > their chosen activity to get good at it, why SHOULDN'T they be rewarded?
> A
> > concert pianist may have been practicing for 20 years to hone his/her
> skill.
> > Does that belittle the accomplishment?
> The comparison isn't equal. Anyway, unless I had more information, I still
> wouldn't know if they are a truly gifted musician, or just someone who
> practices a lot.
> > Apparently, only to you...
> Yes, I'm the one who started this thread.
> > You seem to think that unless the accomplishment comes quickly, it isn't
> worth
> > mentioning. Why is that, David?
> It depends on the accomplishment. They aren't all the same. Hotlapping
> charts/rankings don't tell me anything. They don't tell me the person is a
> good sim driver, or that he's a bad sim driver.
> David G Fisher
> > Eldred
> > --
> > Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...
> > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
> you
> > with experience...
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.