rec.autos.simulators

Someone needs to take away your freaking keyboard and never give it back.
SHEESH!

Thom, what exactly constitutes real life racing. This is my real life and when i'm sitting behind my computer racing it appears to be real competition. I've raced in real life and raced in simulations and the only real difference I see is that I can't get injured and it costs alot less. The competition is alot stiffer than it was in real life also. I guess I don't quite understand your idea of it not being real simply because it is on a computer.

Mike Grandy

Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team

3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

  Now a response:
  Sorry Tom this time I really *don't agree* with your comments! This
  is "rec.autos.simulators" and in many of the "sim-games" it will state,
  Qualify, PB, Racing, and much more! Of course this *isnt* "real life"
  racing and anyone that thinks this is, are diluted!
  So no matter what word or words that are used here it still *is* and
  always will be "rec.autos.simulators" here. Bottom line: to me Tom,
  Your taking words & dissecting them when they do not need to be!
  This newsgroup is just that a newsgroup for 'rec.sim'ers' if you will
  no more, no less. -Thom_j.

  | So, please....could you guys "hot-lap" all you want...but just stop
  talking
  | about it as if it was racing?  Please?
  |
  | Regards,
  |
  | Tom Pabst
  |
  |

  ---
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  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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While I agree with you about hot-lapping not proving anything, I think
that if that's the way someone wants to treat GPL, then, who am I to say
that's wrong for them.  However, I think that a true measure of one's
skill is not trying to get the fastest single lap, but how he/she races
against other [human] opponents.

Maybe what we need is something akin to the N4 community's racereaper,
but for GPL. Racereaper accepts race results and puts them into a
database in order to acrue statistical information.  It would be up to
the server owner to submit these results to the reaper server, but then
EVERYBODY could see how they stack up against everyone else in a more
authentic racing situation.  

I'm actually quite surprised that VROC doesn't already do this since
it's a simple matter to harvest race results from servers and create a
statistical database.

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----cut for room---

    I agree that equating Fast lap times with "Racing" is not the way to go.
But at the same time, Sim Racing isn't a Automobile Racing Sport either.  It
equates the same way that***roach racing does to AutoRacing (from all the
prison movies and the WWII prison movies).  My opinion is that Sim racing is
it's own beast in the Sports world just as those***roach racing things
are. They relate only because they are in the same category,
"Sport/Competition".

    Jan V. pointed out something that is very interesting...  What would it
take to make Sim Racing a SPORT that the general public would take interest
in it? (out side of the "***" attitude that many SimRacers have)  What
would it take to attract Sponsorships for SimRacers and/or leagues?  I read
something just recently where ESPN broadcasted a Dungeons and Dragons type
of card game and the winner made one hell of a lot of money.  if a card game
can generate sponsorship money and generate media coverage, what would it
take to do the same with SimRacing?

just an interesting question to ponder.
Michael Barlow

You have way too much time on your hands.  :-)

Thank you for referring to my old web site. Unfortunately it has died a
natural death but my claim to fame is that we used Don Scurlock's Sub Zero
BEFORE GPLRank hit the scenes !!  :-)

I'm not even sure what your point was but to race is just to compete,
whether against a live opponent, a personal best or AI.

I quote ...

race2 (rs)
n.
Sports.
A competition of speed, as in running or riding.

So what is the big deal ???

Many of my customers are 'real' racers who buy my wheel and pedals for both
fun and competition. Some of the 'real' racers are fast in sim racing. Some
are not. I have customers who have never driven a real car in racing spec
and have excellent simulated race craft. Some of these guys would probably
be good drivers of real race cars. Others may not. I'm a bit lost as to your
point.

I think you are trying to differentiate racing simulations from racing games
!! When you speak of 'wreckers', you are speaking of the hated foe of the
serious sim racer. These guys do not even belong in this newsgroup. So when
we speak of sims, as in, rec.autos.simulators, we should in fact be
referring to those racing activities where drivers play by rules and
ettiquette and fair play. In all the GPL and NASCAR 4 competitions I have
been involved with, our drivers are serious and parallels are easily drawn
between them and there 'real' racing counterparts.

So I say again. What is the big deal ??? You can't make people act a certain
way. You can only guide.

I do however hope that one day our simulated racing activities will hit the
heights of being a spectator sport as well as something anyone can
participate in as well as providing accolades for those skilled enough to
reach the highest levels of their chosen sim.

Rob

read more »

Plus he's 4 times World Champion elect and arguably the greatest living
racing driver.

Doug

The idea that FPS shooters are not "as serious" as simracing is an opinion
that crops up fairly often on r.a.s. It's also IMO a narrow-minded and daft
way of thinking. The CPL ( http://www.racesimcentral.net/ ) has regularly been
organising QuakeWorld,  Quake3 and Counterstrike tournaments with cash
prizes in excess of $100,000 for three or four years now. Participants
(individuals and/or teams depending on the event) are flown in to the
competition LAN (usually in Texas) from around the world at the expense of
the CPL, which is funded by sponsors (currently including Intel, Logitech,
MS, Madcatz, Thrustmaster, and more).

Events are covered not only by cascading broadcast servers but also by TV -
we've even had coverage here in England, a one hour program in two parts
covering a CPL tournament was shown on Channel4 and repeated on E4 a couple
of months back.

It seems to me that Tom's dream is for sim racing, sorry, sim "driving", to
be given as much coverage as Q3, CS etc are getting. That's a nice dream but
I'm not convinced it will ever happen. Just in the UK, there are thousands
of members of Quake3 and Counterstrike clans playing regularly in organised
leagues online, yep I know there are sim racing leagues too (I'm in one
myself) but the number of people involved is far fewer. Without the public
support, why would the sponsors care?

Anyway, that's it from me, supposed to be moving house today and I've got to
go get some packing done :0)

Cheers
Jim

PS: As some of you may know there's an ENORMOUS amount of ***/ abusive /
immature Quake players online. There's way more ***s playing Quake than
there are in sim racing (the wreckers etc). That's partly cos there's way
more Quakers than racers but also because it appeals to a different age
group. Despite these people, FPS games have still managed to rake in the
sponsor cash and organise massive international tournaments - my point is
that Tom you don't need to set forth on a mission to convert all of us here
in r.a.s to "the one true way". If the elite sim racers want to be involved
in international competition, fine, go talk to them, make sure they respect
themselves and each other, and you'll be fine. But please don't lecture me
on how I should behave when I'm racing online, it's a hobby that I enjoy,
not a professional sport.

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

                                       Kajun_II (Guy DiGiovanni)

Autocrossing and hotlapping and a race qualifying run are very similar. In
all three you are looking to extract the maximum for car and driver for one
lap.  In qualifying run, or hotlapping tho you have actaully seen the course
in a car for more then 2 laps.  Autocrossing at a Divisional and National
level you get three chances to master the given course.  You have never put
a lap on the course before you first timed run.  In all actaullity since in
a Qualifying run or hotlapping you have seen the course many times from the
drivers seat makes it easier to do that then autocrossing.  The Solo II
driver must put the car at its limit and hold it there from the start to the
finish of his lap.  all of this without ever driving the course before.  In
that respect its harder then road racing or oval racing.  Look at how a guy
in NASCAR can come back rom being two laps down to win a race. Duff a corner
in road racing or oval racing and make it up the next lap. Duff a corner in
Solo II and well you went from being first to being last. I have seen Solo
II events where a class winner and second place in the same class was less
the 0.003 second.

For insurance reason SCCA Solo II and SCCA Pro Solo are defined as prescion
driving event. They will not be considered racing event due to inurance
restrictions.  But even with that said I will say the Top Drivers in Solo II
do very very well in any other form of Motorsports. Jeff Altenberg moved up
from SCCA Solo II to take a SCCA Touring 1 championship and now drives in
SCCA Trans Am.  Randy Probst a current ALMS series driver used to run SCCA
Solo II.  Even TC Kline still runs Solo II and has picked up several drivers
for his team from Solo II.

Many consider Autocrossing like you do something fun to spend a Sunday
doing, but also guys like TC Kline look at autocrossing as a place to find
future road racing drivers.. Randy Probst, Shauna Marinus, Jeff Altenberg,
Scottie White all autocrossed before going on to professional road racing.

Now for Sim Racing. I use Sim Racing to help with a few bad habits I have
when I autocross. One is getting e***d out on course.  When Playing GPL or
Nascar 4 online you have plenty of situations where you need to keep your
head and stay relaxed.  I found before I started sim racing I would come off
the autocross course with my heart pounding and if I had a moment my hands
would even shake. My breathing was hard.  Now since I have been messing
about with sims well I have gotten rid of those bad habits and stay calm on
the solo II course, even is something unexpected happens, like a spin at 70
+ mph.  My preformance in autocrossing is improved immensely since I started
playing with games.  I will say playing sims will not replace even
autocrossing for me. There is no way to replace getting in the car and
actaully autocrossing or racing.  Its more then just wind in the face or the
chance of a real accident.  I did learn how to effectivly left foot brake on
sims before actaully doing it in my Solo II car so I guess that is one thing
that does translate right over.

Many have said in the past and well it does have merit. If Autocrossing was
easier it would be called road racing.

Well to the hotlapping issue. I think the reason its mentioned so much is
its an easy way to discuss the level at which you are compared to others.
With so many different leagues for any game it can be tough to determine who
is best thru race wins only.  Its completely different from Real Racing
since you have reasonably defined levels in racing Oval Racing currently has
the best defined levels from the Cruiser class dirt cars all the way up to
Winston Cup NASCAR stock cars.  in games or sims we do not have that
currently and that is where hotlapping becomes the end level.  Now if
someone where to build a league or a series as it may that would define each
driver level and require drivers to have.  If we had that for lets say one
game it would be something that would take car of a lot of these hotlapping
issues.

If you did it in NASCAR 4 it would be a bit easier. Wtih Papy's rating
system you could grade drivers into groups.  If you have a 3 or under rating
you run this class in a given league.  Bigger rating number the higher the
class you run in.  That would take care of the issue for NASCAR 4 and maybe
give some respectablity to playing sims.

By the way I am a 3 on road courses, 0 on short tracks( never ran one online
yet) a 2 on Speedways and a 3 on Superspeedways.

Dave

Autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder.

Scott
PA-Scott
http://www.PowerSimsMag.com

Speaking of which... you are in Albany aren't you?!?    ;)

Scott
PA-Scott
http://www.PowerSimsMag.com
  "Mike Grandy" <mgran...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message news:gItf7.300846$EF2.37869492@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
  Very good post Tom, also very long and while i didn't read the whole thing for fear I would lose a whole day I agree with you on alot of points. Ask anyone that attends a LikeReal lan event if they take it seriously. You can bet that a good majority of us take it very seriously. Ask anyone that runs a league what they think the potential is. Last year at a LAN event in Indy we had a whole lounge full of people that probably knew nothing about simracing with their eyes glued to the big screens in the rear of the sports bar/restaurant. They were cheering and had no idea it wasn't real. But, back to your post. Simracing will never attain the status that say a Nascar organization has unless they aquire a large spectator following. It will be a long hard road and the trek will be going long after I expire. We have come a long way over the last 6+ years and from here on in it's gets slower and tougher. There are too many variables to consider when people start taking simracing seriously, most of all would be the ability to cheat and the measures that can be taken to ensure this doesn't happen. I think for simracing the future would be dedicated gaming machines that keep the security issues to a minimum, and where all available resources are designed to focus on the tak at hand.

  Mike Grandy

  Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team

  3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale

    "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@home.com> wrote in message news:Eopf7.11334$P15.6271537@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
    .....So I'm going to try to keep this as short as I can (and it will
    probably still be too long).  Sorry.

    My reasons for making this post are based on my love of racing (real and
    simulated) and a desire to see simulated racing become respected as a form
    of racing where the skills of the sim driver approach, if not equal, the
    skills of the real-world driver.  I believe I won't get too much argument
    that an enormous amount of good can come to the simulated racing community,
    its members (drivers), its software developers both individual and
    corporate, same for the hardware developers and manufacturers,
    leagues/series administrators...and so forth, if the real-world racing
    community embraced the simulated racing community with something on the
    order of equal stature and respect.  Its no secret that I have spent the
    better part of the last five years (full-time for the last three years)
    trying to do my part to bridge the gap between sim racing and real racing.
    So I'm not going to go into all the supporting reasons why I think we'd
    benefit by being respected as racing drivers....by real-world racing drivers
    and their "community"....I kind of figure that's a given!

    I also want to state without any doubt, I totally defend the right of any
    member of this community to choose to enjoy sim racing however they wish to
    do so.  If that means they want to treat this activity as a leisure-time,
    fun, game-playing activity.....that is 100% their right to do so.  That
    includes the so called "wreckers" even!  I would defend their right to wreck
    other drivers in a race with them....if that's their idea of "fun" they are
    entitled to it.  They are just not entitled to wreck other drivers who don't
    share their sense of fun.  As long as the "wreckers" all race together and
    not with other more serious-minded sim drivers/participants....that's Okay
    with me!

    So, for sake of simplicity......I would like to divide all the members of
    this community into two general groups:  Serious sim racing drivers and
    game-playing sim racing drivers.  Notice, I did not say "two equal
    groups".......I have no idea how many members of this community, if asked to
    place themselves in one group or the other.....would be in each group.  We
    could say, "50/50"....but it really doesn't matter to me....it has nothing
    to do with what "point" I'd like to make.  Let's say, there's a substantial
    number of people in both groups....together they make up the sim racing
    community I'm referring to in this post.

    So....to the point I would like to make:  When someone who is engaging in an
    activity of sim racing that is clearly "game playing" (like wrecking cars
    instead of racing against cars)......tries to make that out to be serious
    race car driving......sim race car driving to be exact.......then I am going
    to stand up and shout "NO."  Why?

    Because I'm trying to get real-racing people to look upon the activities of
    the "serious sim drivers" in this community with some respect.....respect
    because they have the same or close to the same skills as real race car
    drivers.  I know that, but at this point, they don't know that!   And, I
    can't do that if a vocal minority of "game players" in this online community
    keeps calling what they are doing "race driving".....it discredits everyone
    in the sim racing community when that happens.  Or, should I say, it
    discredits them as far as the real-world racing community is concerned.
    And, that is the opposite of what I think....as do many others in this
    community....would be good for sim racing.

    I'm not talking about the "wreckers"....am I.  No.  They are a small
    minority....true.  But they are not very vocal.

    I am talking about the GPL community.  Not all of its members of
    course......but a far too large number of them.....and a way to large vocal
    number of them.  I'm also talking about a few in the N4 community.....but
    its a relatively small number.....in my opinion at least.

    So, to many of you.....it might seem as if I'm attacking the GPL sim racing
    community.....that often referred to group of "elite" sim racers (a term
    I've heard too much of lately...makes me want to throw up
    sometimes).......and that's why I figured this was not going to be popular.

    Well, I'm not attacking anyone.

    But I am going to ask the GPL community, some (but not all)....of its
    members....to do me, and anyone else in this community that would like to
    see sim racing some day become a full-fledged e-sport form of racing....a
    very big favor!  I don't know for sure how many others there are among you
    that would like to see sim racing become a respected form of racing......I
    know I can name a couple hundred.....and that's enough to ask this favor, I
    think?

    Here's the favor:  Please stop referring to, in public places (like this
    newsgroup, race chat rooms, VROC, etc.)....referring to "hot-lapping," or
    the GPLRank - (Hot-lapping scoreboard).....as racing, race car driving or
    having anything to do with racing skills.  I'm not asking you to stop doing
    it.  I'm not asking you to stop liking to do it even!  I am asking you to
    stop calling it "racing".....because it isn't.  And, when members of the
    real-world racing community see you doing this.....you discredit everyone
    who is a serious sim driver in this community....and would like to bridge
    the gap between themselves and the real-world race drivers.  I don't think
    this is an unfair "favor" to ask of you.

    I would like to make a few "points" in support of my request:

    1.  In case there is any doubt that this "game" activity of hot-lapping is
    being referred to by its participants as "racing"....here's a direct quote
    off a web page displaying the GPLRank list:  **When players reach the magic
    sub zero score, they would have reached a milestone putting them in a
    category of excellence in driving. A point we all strive for.**  That is a
    direct "cut and paste" copy from the following website:
    http://www.technobyte.com.au/Advantage1/GPL/subzero.html

    2.  Real world racing does not engage in any activity that even resembles
    "hot-lapping" or keeps any records or "lists" that would resemble the
    GPLRank system list of drivers.  Nobody in real-world racing could afford to
    crash their cars....what....several hundred times (some of you say several
    thousand times).....in order to pull off some totally lucky "flyer lap"
    ...and then post it somewhere so they can be thought of as an "excellent
    race driver."  Of course, nobody in real-world racing would live through
    such an activity, either.

    3.  The closest thing I can attribute in real-world racing to something that
    maybe some of the "hot-lappers" have confused to be similar to what they
    do.....and call it racing......is maybe "qualifying" or....."fastest race
    lap"......or maybe even "track record holder."  But, let's be clear about
    this.  No race driver I know of, made it to the "hall of fame" of public
    opinion (or the real one) in racing because they had a lot of
    races.....where they had the "fastest lap" in that race.  They don't keep
    that score in real-world racing.  I don't think anyone made it for having
    the most "track records" either.  I know they don't put you in the hall of
    fame for having been on the most poles.....heck, no one can even remember
    who the pole sitter was....come Monday morning...usually (unless of course
    you also win the race on Sunday).  The only thing they put you in the "hall
    of fame" for....is winning races....winning championships (based on
    winning/finishing position...in races).

    4.  I spent an hour.....maybe it should have been longer.....but I couldn't
    find a single GPL related website that listed all the GPL drivers in ranking
    of the number of races they've won.  Or, the number of podium finishes
    they've had.  I have no idea who the good race car drivers are in GPL....or
    what they do or
...

read more »

<sigh> He were go again... we'd be better off naming this group
rec.autos.misinterpretations or rec.autos.sweeping_generalisations.

Did I say I take FPS's less seriously as an entertainment form in general
than simracing? -Did you think I didn't know they've got sponsored events
and pro players?

No, I said I find it hard to talk in the same way about simracing as I do
about FPS's. When a couple of buddies and myself decide to meet online to
repeatedly blow the ***out of eachother, I say "I'm playing multiplayer
HalfLife later", whereas for scheduled simracing events I say: "I'm racing
later".

Clear?

Jan.
=---
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

Scott
PA-Scott
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Mike Grandy
Proud Member of Precision Racing Internet Race Team
3 A Champion Forever-Godspeed Dale