rec.autos.simulators

Yes it would. IMO we would need all the top leagues to unite into a
super league, made up of divisions. A mammoth undertaking, but it's the
ONLY way to produce meaningful data.

Gerry

Kinda like Jack Rambo's "Nail That Track" World series vision of 1999?

Which included the formation of a world sim racing body, masterminding a
world league table.

Shame the plan didn't include Jack getting any sleep running races in
America, Australia and Europe, which led to its demise before the team got
formed.

With the work that volunteers put in to running leagues the co-ordination of
all these efforts may not be such a mammoth task as back then.

So perhaps NTT was just ahead of its time. Food for thought...

Tony

--

Fester

... and, personally, I hotlap as a way of developing my car-control
skills before I start racing so that I'm not a danger to others
(online) or don't find it utterly frustrating (against AI).  Plus it
provides a measure of my performance / development.

Hopefully my RC racing will already have equipped me with a modicum of
racecraft - but I'm not yet sure I've learnt to drive adequately!

Jonny

Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Since I autocross on a regular basis and well have not total a car
autocrossing I would say its without crashing. My GPL and N4 driving is also
the same tack.  When running practise or qualifying runs I work on getting
the absolute most out of the car and myself for a given lap.

During a race in GPL I usually run as hard as I can with cold tires and when
they are up to the task I start putting down hard laps to either push the
leader or build up a lead, where I then manage the margin to win the race.
Fangio siad it rather perfectly, Trying to win at the slowest absolute pace
you can.  In N4 I will go very hard the first lap if I have the lead to
build up some margin and then try to manage the lead thru the end of the
race. You have to worry about tires in N4 more then GPL so its a concern
there.  If I am not leading I am trying to fill the persons mirrors I am
behind and find his weak spot to execute the pass then work on building up
distance between him and me, while trying not to use up the tires.  Being
able to get the maximum out of the car from the start is important in race
caft since if you do not have to deal with someone on your gearbox or
infront of you the race just goes easier.  I am all for easy since in
autocrossing and playing games I am out to do a job, win the race if
possible.  The easier I can do that, the better.

Dave

The ppl with low GPLRank would be able to show their racecraft against
drivers of a similar speed.

Rafe Mc

<big snip, what happened to that promise Tom? :)>

That's one major assumption there don't you think?  That somehow, we
have not got any better at keeping the car on the track, just lucky.  Of
course, whilst 'hot-lapping' there is more of a tendency to lose the car
when driving that close to the edge so to speak, but in my own
experience, with the extra speed has also developed a better
understanding of how to handle the car (even at these higher speeds)
that I didn't have when I was struggling around with what would have
been a GPLrank on the + side.  Though, when GPLrank first appeared I was
already at a good enough level to be well into the negatives, so I'm
talking hypothetically there.  And, if that is the case for myself, I
would also expect it to be the same for many others who's ranking is
well under the zero mark.  We have got there because we know what to
expect and how to react in the most appropriate way in order to keep the
car going as fast as possible.  

Do you really believe that to get as quick as some of the guys have
become that they are just riding their luck, not really any more skilled
in the ability to put that virtual car where they want, when they want?
That's just a tiny bit insulting to many who have dedicated a hell of a
lot of time to honing those skills down to the nth degree don't you
think?

Indeed, however this has become a quick and dirty way of giving a
reasonable estimation of each individual's abilities at GPL whilst at
the same time, from comments that I have read, helped boost the GPL
community at the same time, so I see no need to discontinue with it for
the forseeable future.

Not everyone has the opportunity to race online in leagues and so their
only way of guaging themselves with others is by use of GPLrank.  I am
not in a league, but I do race casually online as well as offline,
though I doubt continually posting about my last intermediate short
offline race from the back of a full field to win against the AI has the
same immediacy as a simple scoring system.  Until you get around that
GPLrank remains for me.

<Lots more snippage>

When it comes down to it, sim racing gives us one major advantage at the
moment, and that is the fact that we can drive as hard as we like
without impunity or fear of injury - unless you've got an Act Labs
steering wheel with FF on and the settings too high, perhaps :) - and
so, until a sim comes out where bad driving and crashing is penalised in
some manner other than putting you out of a race or spoiling a fast lap,
I have no qualms about trying every which way I can in order to
determine the quickest way around each and every circuit, even if that
is going to mean me going off a lot more often than if I was to drive a
real car no doubt.  That doesn't mean however that, if I needed to, I
and many, many other fast drivers couldn't keep the car on the track at
speeds pretty near what we are capable of whilst 'hot-lapping'.  So
let's not denegrate this enjoyable part of sim racing just because it
doesn't match up to the 'real' world.
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

Yes, that's it! Would be really nice :)

This would reduce the drop out rate on all these
'19 starters-3 finishers' online races.
And the rank would be the right punishment for all these
lap one crash-burn-disco wreckers, too.

Guess, we would need to take the 'rank' of the
competition into account when assigning points..
A 4th place behind 3 aliens should count more than
a win in a race of backmarkers..

   Calis   (GPLrank -23, SCNR ;)

Why do we all use racing sims?  Surely because we all want to be
real-life racers, but for the huge majority of us, finances, skills
and age means it's only a dream.  So what does a guy do?  Buy a
respectable sim and start dreaming.

Shuey, on the other hand, happens to be the real thing (and the best
of his generation at that, IMO).  After seven years in F1 he's hardly
going to be impressed with ANY sim, (even' GPL).  No real feedback
from the car means, without a hyperstimulator or suchlike, we can only
really respect his opinion as he has experience of something we can
only dream of.

It is not real-world racing, it is (maybe major?) part of sim racing.

Well, I would say, that's the main difference between the real thing
and the simulation:

- A new car cost zero $
- everyone is invulnerable

So only the simmers can afford to go for the ultimate goal:
To push the car to the absolute limit (of course, approaching this
limit from BOTH sides ;)

Grant these two facts in real life, and I bet we would only see
hotlap competitions on TV!
No one would be interested in boring 2 hour races, when you can
get all the action packed into a single lap.

Just imagine the summary on TV: You would see the perfect lap
of the winner (takes a minute or two), <insert commercials here>,
some overlays with the guys a bit slower to analyse where they lost
their 1/100 seconds, <insert commercials here>,
and finally, some laps with incredible wrecks from guys pushing too hard.

Yes. Simulation gives the possibility to do things you cannot do
in real life.

Why do you try to make sim racing similar to real-world racing?

In sim racing there is much more freedom! No security restrictions,
no commercial influence, no politics, no environmental considerations..

Just pure racing.

And if sim racing (without artificial restrictions) evolves towards
hotlapping, then this is the way to go.

Hmm... if the community does this, why do you think this is a bad thing?
It's better than having someone else telling us who the elite is.
Or someone implementing 'rules' to make sure the 'right' person wins.
Do you want to implement some rules here???

Maybe a win in a race says nothing about the skill of this driver?
There are too many random things deciding about winning an online race.
You can always be lucky and get the top drivers disco'ed, wrecked by
some bozos, getting hit by a warp accident or whatever.
But you cannot get a clean 1:26 second lap at Monza by accident. That is
measureable skill. (ok, it is a different skill from the skill you need
to win a long race, but long races are boring anyway :)

If I'm going to tell you that I won a pickup race at Mosport
last Wednesday, so what? 17 starters? What do you know now - nothing.
When I tell you, I can do a 1:27.5 lap at Silverstone,
you can at least guess that I put in some weeks of 'work' there,
that I know every kink and bump there, that I have a nice
setup fitting my driving style...

Of course, it isn't. btw: It is the same as the season point standing of
the F1, or world cup points (or whatever you call it) of any other sport..
These numbers are as meaningless as anything else.

Yes, sim racing is different from real world racing. You got it ;)
But hotlapping is only one part of GPL sim racing. There are league races,
pickup races, fantasy events like the land speed record attempts, ...

What else are we doing?

What is the difference between playing computer games, playing
simulation games, playing a racing sim, driving a racing sim?

When I put 30 hours per week into playing PacMan, I'm still playing
a computer game. After some years of doing so, it will still be
a computer game. Of course, I'll be able to play PacMan on a rather
professional level and only a few others will be able to compete.

If you watch me for 5 minutes, you probably will think: just another
guy playing PacMan. You need to watch for the 6 hours I get away without
losing a single life - then you will think: Wohoo, what a performance!

   Calis

BTW: Whenever I am in a 19starter/3finisher race, I'm one of the finisher :)

Ok, so we have these guys who occasionally
jump into online races and pretend to do the real thing on one side
and the guys who put in 4 hours per day/7 days a week for 2 months
just to get their Mosport laptime from 1:20.96 down to 1:20.88 on the
other side.

Let me guess whom you are going to call the serious sim racing drivers?

   Calis

For me, it is not going into a turn carefully, then a bit faster,
a bit faster, a little bit faster... until I doubt I can go another
little bit faster.

I prefer a kind of binary search from both sides.
Going into a turn carefully - too slow. ok.
Going into it carelessly - oops, too fast.
A bit slower - ok, works.
A bit faster - oops, too fast.
A little bit slower - ok.
A very little bit faster - perfekt.

Of course, in real life I would try to
avoid these 'oops'-moments :)

   Calis

Jan.
=---
PS.: BTW Tom, Peter would be another one of those on that 10 good racers
list.

I understand your point, and agree.

Achim