rec.autos.simulators

The skill level system is in place to help accomodate this.  Also, the
series system is in place for the same reason.

Right now, everyone is new to Hawaii, except a few people who particiapted
in closed beta.  That means that all at once, EVERYONE is starting at the
same skill level.  There was no way to fairly avoid this.

I hope that everyone will be a little patient.  Yes, there are a lot of
people in the same skill class as you right now that do not belong in the
same skill class as you. That's because 99.9% of the people online are in
the 0-1 category.  The better drivers will rise to the top quickly.  Be
patient & have fun.

As for your analogy about NC Motor Speedway vs Wade County, in the real
world, things like risk of death & legal accountability are in play.  That
stuff does not exist (at least as it pertains to driving)in the virtual
world.  Frankly, that's the beauty of multiplayer NASCAR.  99% of the people
online will NEVER EVER have the chance to drive a car around Bristol.  But
you can on Hawaii.  That's what we're all about!
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group

Connecting to Hawaii at any speed above 9600 baud provides absolutely no
benefit.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Sierra On-Line, Inc.

--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group

On Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:29:31 -0400, Donald Lewis

Yeah, I know, I can hear it already: "I'm calling long distance and I
don't need to be wrecked by some newbie." Well guess what, maybe the
newbie does pretty good against AI cars but hasn't run against all
these "self-proclaimed experts who posess the talent but not the bucks
needed for their own real NASCAR team." Ok, so maybe I'm stretching
their opinion of themself, but damn if they don't come off that way
when they pontificate here.

I'm not great online (i.e I don't finish last, but don't look for me
in the top 5 either), but in an offline game with opponents at 100%, I
usually end up in the top10. Is that too lame to be racing online?
Don't be surpised if some of the online experts think so.

Most likely this is why Papyrus developed the rating season. Too bad
the "experts" want to jump right up to 15 cause they're so good. I
have nothing against these guys who are better than I am at NASCAR
Racing, but give it a rest. They should put in their time and they'll
never have to bother with all the newbies they despise. Besides, it
shouldn't take all that long considering how good they are.

Guess I wont be making too many friends here with my opinions, but oh
well, someone's gotta say it. I'm sure Papyrus didn't create this
service as a pet project for all the people with Earnhardt Egos and Al
Bundy budgets.  

OK, flame away....
=========================================================
==Jim McGuigan     Power Switching & Conversion Systems==
==Hanover, PA      Baltimore / Washington Field Service==
==                                                     ==
**               Hawaii Driver: Knuckle Duster         **
*********************************************************

        Regards Pete

: How about programming for "blame" in the most obvious case? i.e., When
: you rear-end someone, only the rear car should get penalized. That
: should be pretty easy to program and would probably cover 90% of
: accidents, especially fore of beginners.

I might be wrong, but this sounds like a really bad idea. If someone pulls
their slower car into the path of a faster car... its the SLOWER/FRONT
cars fault for the incident. Not only would a "blame" factor be wrong in
most cases; But it would also create a lot of animosity on the track for
retribution. Most accidents aren't due to rearending each other (except
maybe on pace laps)... they're caused more often by side-side racing and
neither gives up position. If a driver is intentionally blocking a faster
driver... there's a rearend collision on the horizon in most cases.

bill

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go fast, turn left.

You're stretching it a bit there.  Even a 0 skill level can race.

Okay, time for my $0.02 worth here.
I'm sure there are drivers who feel that a "newbie" shouldn't even call
in, but let's define Newbie because I will GUARANTEE you, I know exactly
where that sentiment is coming from. Here we go:
* A newbie isn't even the proper term.  Someone 'new' on the server does
not a bad driver make... and right there IS the proper term; Bad Driver.
* So what is a bad driver?
1. A guy who does not take his driving seriously.  He/she/it gets out on
the track, bangs the AI all over the place, drives backwards, and
generally 'plays'.  Yes, I know this is a game, but it is a game based on
very serious competition.  The whole program is a very realistic
simulator and many, Many people have used this as a place to drive
for-real since this may be the closest they ever get.  MultiPlayer Need
for Speed might be a better place for a 'player'
2. An inexperienced driver.  I don't think it would be wise to go out,
buy Nascar and then log onto the server the next week.  Putting in seat
time and learning to drive consistently at these speeds can be done
offline.  the AI can teach you a lot.  Some say the AI is way too
unaggressive.  My take is that the AI drives like patient, smart drivers,
a real virtue no matter what you race and the mark of a champion.  I'd
say the ability to move amongst the AI without crashing them would be an
ideal indicator of whether one was ready for Multiplay.

Y'know, the 'exposed  tip of the iceberg' in racing is to go fast and get
there first.  The part of racing that is known only by the true champions
is the ability to drive smart, be patient, give and take, focus and
concentrate, stay out of trouble.  I have been driving this sim
religiously since November of 1994 and I *still* see myself grow in these
areas.  This is not easy stuff to learn.  It comes to you a lap at a time
and even then, only if you're paying attention.  The guys and gals that
have an ongoing love affair with REAL racing and this sim will always
take a dim view of people who who stick it out there, bash it up, and
then go on to the next thing.  What's wrong with a little respect for
those who have put in much ***, Sweat and Gears to be a damn fine
driver?  They have a lot more in this than the rest of you can imagine,
and sure they may be a lot more ***retentive about it, but this is REAL
to them, and they have been in the midst of racing action to a level that
would rival what you see on TV on Sunday.  It's amazing.  They can't
fathom why anyone wouldn't want to race at the highest quality level
possible, and human nature will force them to look down their nose at
anyone who only cares to half-ass it.
Call it elitism if you will, I prefer the term 'passion'

There's a number of experts on that server.  Whether they are
self-proclaimed or not does not dilute the fact that they ARE experts.

I imagine some yay-hoos/closed beta testers will come here and
pontificate to build up their egos.  Some damn good drivers/closed beta
testers may protectively speak their feelings as individuals who have
spent many, many hours to get this project ready for this stage.  It's up
to you to figure out which one is which.

That would depend on _how_you_go_about_getting into the top 10.
It's not about being fast or slow.  It's about being a good, fast, Clean
driver.  If you are Clean, REALLY Clean, the experts will love you, trust
me.

The ones that _are_ good already have begun the trip there, the ones that
aren't have, and will continue to have numbers that show it.

Later
MMc

And one for every State in Australia.   Why is it called Hawaii if it
is based in Boston?   At least Hawaii is closer to Canberra.

Cheers,

Craig.
******************************************************************************

Canberra, Australia

IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1
******************************************************************************

: True...I've already read one post here in which the author mentioned
: something at the end about letting the newbies know they shouldn't be
: dialing in. The service isn't even out of beta and we already have
: someone saying that the less experienced shouldn't even bother calling
: in.

: Yeah, I know, I can hear it already: "I'm calling long distance and I
: don't need to be wrecked by some newbie." Well guess what, maybe the
: newbie does pretty good against AI cars but hasn't run against all
: these "self-proclaimed experts who posess the talent but not the bucks
: needed for their own real NASCAR team." Ok, so maybe I'm stretching
: their opinion of themself, but damn if they don't come off that way
: when they pontificate here.

: I'm not great online (i.e I don't finish last, but don't look for me
: in the top 5 either), but in an offline game with opponents at 100%, I
: usually end up in the top10. Is that too lame to be racing online?
: Don't be surpised if some of the online experts think so.

: Most likely this is why Papyrus developed the rating season. Too bad
: the "experts" want to jump right up to 15 cause they're so good. I
: have nothing against these guys who are better than I am at NASCAR
: Racing, but give it a rest. They should put in their time and they'll
: never have to bother with all the newbies they despise. Besides, it
: shouldn't take all that long considering how good they are.

: Guess I wont be making too many friends here with my opinions, but oh
: well, someone's gotta say it. I'm sure Papyrus didn't create this
: service as a pet project for all the people with Earnhardt Egos and Al
: Bundy budgets.  

Maybe one of the things Papyrus could put into Hawaii V2 (hehe) is a
'driving school', where more experienced drivers could teach us less
talented folks without hurting anyone's ratings if someone wrecks.  Hell, I
can't even drive well enough to finish a race in single player mode yet,
and not because I drive like a suicidal on crack.  I need guidance. ;)  
Yeah, that's a good idea.

--
                               ______________________________________________
  1986 Mustang 5.0           .~        ___________________         _________/
 Under Construction         /        .~                  /        /
Pardon my Bondo dust       /        /        ,-------+  /        /
___________________       /        /        /       /  /        /
_______________   /      /        `--------'       /  /        /
_________________/      (_________________________/  /________/

Much of the debate here on R.A.S is really about multiplayer online culture, na
d we've seen these same converstations in the early stages is Air Warrior and
Warbirds.  Just to echo Mark's point here, you will receive much more respect
as a clean, (if you will, TEAM), player than just someone who goes fast and
wins races without regard for others. Likewise verterans that take the time to
help out new guys and impart advice, will also receive much more respect oin
the online culture than those who ignore others. (I'm not saying there's poeple
here that do that, just making a point). I don't think there's anyone here that
hasn't at one point been the cause of an accident, especially in the early part
of their career, becaus ethat's what learning is all about.  It really is
amazing however, how much, just droiving clean, and to survive will propell you
up the ranks here.

I hate to tell war stories, but just one very typical example. I smaked my car
up in qual at Martinsville and qualed 32, dead last in the pack. I jsut took
the attitude of drive slow and stay out of trouble. That, combined with a
little luck, had me in 8th place by like the 4th lap, (I eventually finished
3rd out of 32). I made an effort not to race anyone, but just stay alive and I
finished without a dent. I really believe this is the way to move up in the
earlier lesser skill races. (Luck helps!)

Anyway, good comments, Mark.

Los

I

   Next time ,just hit enter

 They should put in their time and they'll

   I guess it bothers me that you have come to believe that the
original testers feel this way, maybe it shouldn't.
   Last tues Hawaii went "live", and I think I doubled my phone bill.
The "old timers" I've encountered have actually enjoyed this wild last
5 days.
   Watching the neubies scurrying around from race to race, trying to
check out everything, making the same mistakes, and doing the same
annoying things ("How many laps", "is pace on") that we did is pure
nostalgia.
   How can we despise you guys? Hell, we spent MANY hours trying to
make sure Hawaii would work in anticipation of this event . Many
evenings we loaded up our phone charges and for hours nothing worked
right! For months we were limited to 5% races. Constant disconnects,
huge warps, were the norm. All for one purpose so that this would work
when you got here.Those "Pass Car..." messages, the spotter, relative
position chart, and many many other improvments came from some very
dedicated (more than I) unpaid testers. These guys poured their souls
into this....Brian Tate and Terry Adams instantly come to mind but
there are others of course. We wanted to see this week come and I have
had a blast watching you guys play, fight, argue, congradulate, whine,
cry, complain, laugh, and I know theres been some heart thumping
finishs for many of you.
   When one of those guys says something, heed the tone, he just might
be trying to help. And Pleeeze lets try and keep this a family board.

 Since tues I have raced every night with the neubies and had a great
times and some less than memorable ones too. Some of you are terrific
wheel jockeys and have a great attitude and some are great drivers and
.oh well...
 Please don't flame me, I have had that done all week. Many have put in
a ton of time on Hawaii so I'm sure you'll understand if many of us
feel as though Hawaii belongs to "us".....it doesn't and we know it! We
just feel
 like it does! <G>.

 We can't despise you its too much deja vu!

                                      MLang

  PS  special mention to Junk from Nasscar ...GREAT run at MIS last
night. (do something about that name its scary<G>)