>I was on there earlier too. However I am a little nervous about
paying
>for calls to Boston. That could get expensive. I do plan to use it a
>little though.
>I was on there earlier too. However I am a little nervous about
paying
>for calls to Boston. That could get expensive. I do plan to use it a
>little though.
Mailing List: Papyrus Racing Simulation Discussions
This list has two purposes. 1) To allow users of the Papyrus NASCAR
Racing Simulation to exchange ideas, setups, and other information.
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R.A.S.N. ... there's no place like home...
> >** Works Great - except for:
> >1. It's a long distance number... I can't afford the phone bill I'm
> >about to run up.
> >2. Idiots. People who have no concept of a pace lap.
> > ------- Please!!!! --------
> >Learn to drive on your own PC first, then join the world.
> >I tried 2 races and both started with crashes in the first 50 ft on the
> >pace lap.
> I got on last nite and raced in Atlanta and 'Dega. I got nailed by several
> idiots who either a) don't know how to drive, or b) don't have the sense god
> gave a brick. People who don't know how to drive will be a real problem.
> I also couldn't seem to use my own car. I weas using a different car in both
> races, and there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the sim's selection.
> I also couldn't find anything about this in the docs.
> I think that:
> 1) If someone nominates a race, they should be able to set a mininmum skill
> level for joining. This will keep the***wads off the track.
> 2) There should be some mechanism which allows us to upload our cars to the
> service so we can race with our own paintjobs and other drivers can see
> them.
> 3) The "service" should have local access numbers (at least one for every
> major metropolitan area). The long distance charges are enough to keep me
> from calling more than once a month.
> 4) Papyrus should make a network version of the game which allows up to 8 (or
> 10) humans in a given race (like Descent). This would make it playable over
> the internet as well. They obviously have the knowledge for doing this.
> /=================================================\
> | John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker) |
> | http://www.racesimcentral.net/|
> \=================================================/
Over the 1 & 1/2 years that we've been developing multiplayer NASCAR, we've strugelled over a
lot of the points that you bring up in your postings. Hopefully, I can give you the synopsis...
1) Long distance charges. Telecommunications costs are a top priority for us. We want to make
multiplayer NASCAR as inexpensive as possible. However, given the type of game that we are
building, we have extreme latency requirements. (For those that don't know, latency is the
delay in getting data from point A to point B.) Multiplayer NASCAR requires a latency of under
250 milliseconds round trip (i.e. less than 1/4 of a second). That means that a user connected
in LA needs to be able to send data from LA to Boston & back to LA in less than 1/4 of a second.
This includes all the time it takes to go through the computers, modems, data center & telephone
lines.
Given the public data networks that exist today, this can not be done. The internet, although
widely available, can not provide reliable low latency. Yes, there are some promising things
happening in low latency internet game services, but they are not yet done/"ready for prime
time". Believe me, we are completely on top of all of this. Again, a top priority is low cost
access.
In the open beta phase, given the current state of the art, we have to rely on point to point
communications to give us the latency we need. Is it more expensive than we want? Yes. Are we
doing everything possible to change that once we go live? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
2) "Idiots". We prefer to call them inexperience drivers. We have put an ENORMOUS amount of
effort into setting multiplayer NASCAR up so that peers can race against peers. We have a very
sophisticated ranking system in place to help group peers together. However, in order to
calculate a skill level for anyone, we need a fair sample of data -- that's statistics 101.
Our ranking system, which can be downloaded online, uses the most recent 10 events to calculate
the user's level. Currently, the re-calculation for each user is done over-night. Eventually,
it will be done real-time after every race.
Everyone starts at the bottom. That's only fair. The better you are, the faster you move up.
In other words, if you're that good, you'll move out of the range where you have to race "not so
good" drivers rather quickly.
We're only 2 days into open beta... it's going to take some time before we have enough data to
move you/anyone up the ranks.
I want to make one other important point in this regard. Classifying inexperienced drivers as
"idiots", "dickwads", "don't have the sense god gave a brick", or "don't know how to drive" is
totally unfair, and frankly, rude. How good were you the first time you tried the game? We are
in a MULTIPLAYER envirnoment. Not everyone is a "good"/experienced as you. Give everyone a
break & everyone will have fun. If you think you're that much better than someone else, then the
skill ranking system will move you up. Patience!!!!! This is a FUN GAME, right?????
3) Setting minimum skill level. It's coming! I've said everything I need to about this in the
point above.
4) Uploading cars. There are some major legal issues that we are resolving regarding custom
cars. NASCAR Racing is a 100% licenced game through NASCAR, the teams, tracks & drivers. Given
that, we have to abide by licensing restrictions.
Further, if every one of the hundreds of people that we have as fans wanted to upload their own
car, it would take many hours to download them all. You think the phone call is expensive now?
I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to sign up for that type of bill.
5) Local access numbers. See point # 1 above. We're working on it. This is just beta testing.
6) Network version. Again, see point # 1 above, and see Rick Genter's posting as well. I assure
you, a network version of NASCAR would NOT be playable over the internet. The internet as a
whole provides unreliable latencies of up to 5 seconds (or more).
Let's do a little test here as an example. Hop in your car. Get on the highway. Speed up to
200 MPH... (OK... speed up to the top speed of your car). Now, cover your eyes for 5 seconds
while you're bumper to bumber with 31 other people. Are you still alive to reply to the rest of
this note? No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're dead! Game OVER!
That's the problem. Multiplayer NASCAR requires 250 millisecond latency. The internet CAN NOT
deliver that. Yes, there are some companies doing some promising work in that area, but it DOES
NOT EXIST TODAY. Believe me, we are all over this stuff. We want to drive the cost of this
down as low as we can. But: 1) it doesn't exist today; and 2) we're in beta test.
I really appreciate all of your input... we opened up the beta testing for exactly this reason.
All I ask is that you try to think about all of the issues before you jump to any conclusions.
This is the BETA TEST of a GAME that we have been working on for over a year and a half.
Hopefully, you think that we have some clue of what we're doing. We're buidlig this for YOU,
after all.
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group
> >As for TCP/IP, like I've said in other posts, a top priority for us is
> >to drive the cost of multiplayer NASCAR down as low as possible. Yes,
> >the internet would be a great way to do that cost-wise, but given our
> >latency requirements, the internet just isn't viable at this time. With
> >that said, there are a number of comapnies doing some promising things
> >with low latency games over the internet. All I can asy for now is that
> >we're on top of it, and we will do everything we can to make it as
> >inexpensive as possible.
> What about a 1-800 number that you charge access for? This is
> generally cheaper than personal long-distance rates, and is much, much
> cheaper than the LD rates in some areas (Canada, for example).
> Joe
I can't really get into a lot more detail, but again, we are expoloring
all alternatives to drive the cost as low as possible.
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group
> >Making a game networkable and making a game work on the Internet are two
> >different things. A high-speed, real-time action game WILL NOT WORK with
> >typical Internet latencies. I'm not talking about throughput. You can have
> >a T1 connection to the Internet and be able to up/download data at a
> >1MB/sec, but if the round trip packet time is anything over about 0.2
> >seconds, it just isn't going to work.
> Hi Rick,
> How are you planning on pricing/rolling out this service once it's out
> of Beta? I'm calling from Vancouver, Canada, which is tremendously
> expensive (not something I can afford more than once or twice a month,
> and even then only late at night).
> What about a 1-800 number with a monthly or even hourly fee to cover
> it? I think this would save a lot of money overall because
> long-distance phone service is so much cheaper in the US than it is
> here.
> Joe
We're looking into more options than you can imagine. Again, the goal
is to drive costs down as low as possible.
However, for now, in beta test (while we're not billing), we have to go
with the "617" solution.
We're working on it!
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group
>> >> follow the links to the Papyrus area):
>> >> http://www.sierra.com/sierra/papy/home.htm
>Actually, if you go here, you don't see it.
>try this instead:
>IN Netscape, erase the last part and just open:
>http://www.sierra.com/sierra/papy
>You'll get a directory - and the HAWAII.EXE file is located there.
>Click once on it to download.
>** Works Great - except for:
>1. It's a long distance number... I can't afford the phone bill I'm
>about to run up.
>2. Idiots. People who have no concept of a pace lap.
> ------- Please!!!! --------
>Learn to drive on your own PC first, then join the world.
>I tried 2 races and both started with crashes in the first 50 ft on
the
>pace lap.
>(but it IS REAL)
>Mike
Any suggestions from experienced Multi-testers is welcome here..
Pacing safely takes practice and concentration
>>** Works Great - except for:
>>1. It's a long distance number... I can't afford the phone bill I'm
>>about to run up.
>>2. Idiots. People who have no concept of a pace lap.
>> ------- Please!!!! --------
>>Learn to drive on your own PC first, then join the world.
>>I tried 2 races and both started with crashes in the first 50 ft on the
>>pace lap.
>I got on last nite and raced in Atlanta and 'Dega. I got nailed by several
>idiots who either a) don't know how to drive, or b) don't have the sense god
>gave a brick. People who don't know how to drive will be a real problem.
Nope. You can use your own setups, if that's allowed by the nominator, but the
car is chosen at random. It'd take MASSIVELY more computing power to enable
everyone to have their own car...and can you imagine if 4-5 people wanted to
drive #3??
They can (unless that option isn't working)
See above...maybe we can get them to do this in the future (altho the logistics
boggle the mind).
It's coming, as we have be led to believe.
Internet play isn't a realistic option at this point. Try flying Warbirds for
an illustration. Warping and latency problems are a major problem. For
racing, it's just not technologically possible at this point in time.
--
Dean Robb (WB: Raz1) (Hawaii Beta Tester)
PC-Easy
On-site computer services and consulting
> >Making a game networkable and making a game work on the Internet are two
> >different things. A high-speed, real-time action game WILL NOT WORK with
> >typical Internet latencies. I'm not talking about throughput. You can have
> >a T1 connection to the Internet and be able to up/download data at a
> >1MB/sec, but if the round trip packet time is anything over about 0.2
> >seconds, it just isn't going to work.
> Hi Rick,
> How are you planning on pricing/rolling out this service once it's out
> of Beta? I'm calling from Vancouver, Canada, which is tremendously
> expensive (not something I can afford more than once or twice a month,
> and even then only late at night).
> What about a 1-800 number with a monthly or even hourly fee to cover
> it? I think this would save a lot of money overall because
> long-distance phone service is so much cheaper in the US than it is
> here.
> Joe
We're looking into more options than you can imagine. Again, the goal
is to drive costs down as low as possible.
However, for now, in beta test (while we're not billing), we have to go
with the "617" solution.
We're working on it!
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group
> >Making a game networkable and making a game work on the Internet are two
> >different things. A high-speed, real-time action game WILL NOT WORK with
> >typical Internet latencies. I'm not talking about throughput. You can have
> >a T1 connection to the Internet and be able to up/download data at a
> >1MB/sec, but if the round trip packet time is anything over about 0.2
> >seconds, it just isn't going to work.
> Hi Rick,
> How are you planning on pricing/rolling out this service once it's out
> of Beta? I'm calling from Vancouver, Canada, which is tremendously
> expensive (not something I can afford more than once or twice a month,
> and even then only late at night).
> What about a 1-800 number with a monthly or even hourly fee to cover
> it? I think this would save a lot of money overall because
> long-distance phone service is so much cheaper in the US than it is
> here.
> JoeJoe,
However, for now, in beta test (while we're not billing), we have to go
with the "617" solution.
We're working on it!
--
Ed Martin
Papyrus Design Group
Ed,
First of all I personally havent had the CHANCE to get on the beta
site to run. I have made connection attempts for 3 hrs. straight
tonight tho! Logs me on just fine but I guess the server is totally
full everytime I call.
And thank you guys a bunch! for your efforts!
NOW!
Second of all that was quite a lengthy reply and a well detailed one
at that. HOWEVER! you made on mistake! And I've said it here 1000
times.... Nascar Racing by Papyrus is NOT I repeat NOT a "fun game"
it is a s-i-m-u-l-a-t-o-r!! And after running NASCAR for 2 yrs. I
still have to correct my wife on that every night!
<ahem> thank you I feel better now :)
P.S. - I know noone at papyrus isn't going to respond to this part for
various reasons. But I still say a lil' prayer every night
that this will spark you guys/gals to work on NASCAR 2 <G>
<attaching big cinnamon buns to each side of my head gazing at >
< a trashcan. >
"help us papyrus gang! your our only hope......"
Is there life outside of NASCAR?
Andy A
Joe
If you were to make this "extremely affordable"... ie:use existing
internet services which we are already paying for.... Nascar would be
the most popular game on the globe. Everyone would "just have to have
it" so they could use the service.
Let the "sales" group know that before they decide to make their
commission on the Hawaii project, please?
Mike "***ed"
Eldred Pickett
I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!?
: In the open beta phase, given the current state of the art, we have to
: rely on point to point
: communications to give us the latency we need. Is it more expensive
: than we want? Yes. Are we
: doing everything possible to change that once we go live? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!
[clip]
: 6) Network version. Again, see point # 1 above, and see Rick Genter's
: posting as well. I assure
: you, a network version of NASCAR would NOT be playable over the
: internet. The internet as a
: whole provides unreliable latencies of up to 5 seconds (or more).
Ed,
What about people who want to play over a LAN? I know that at my
school, there are entire dorms linked with some sort of network. Plus,
i'm sure that if you put in network support, people would form local
racing clubs. I would gladly cart a PC system to someone's house or
other meeting place to have a race or two. I know this would require
some sort of server software, but with people buying faster hardware just
to play your games I think it's possible. The internet is not the only
network out here. :)
> >> >> follow the links to the Papyrus area):
> >> >> http://www.sierra.com/sierra/papy/home.htm
> >Actually, if you go here, you don't see it.
> >try this instead:
> >IN Netscape, erase the last part and just open:
> >http://www.sierra.com/sierra/papy
> >You'll get a directory - and the HAWAII.EXE file is located there.
> >Click once on it to download.
> >** Works Great - except for:
> >1. It's a long distance number... I can't afford the phone bill I'm
> >about to run up.
> >2. Idiots. People who have no concept of a pace lap.
> > ------- Please!!!! --------
> >Learn to drive on your own PC first, then join the world.
> >I tried 2 races and both started with crashes in the first 50 ft on
> the
> >pace lap.
> >(but it IS REAL)
> >Mike
> All the neubies keep nominating races that have no pace lap and so
> they never practice it together.
> Pace laps require your full attention...no weaving to"heat" the
> tires.... stagger your position on the track to give yourself runoff
> room....maintain a constant speed when possible.....DO NOT CHAT, it
> takes a hand off the wheel, your eyes off the road.....do not try
> backing off for a flying start....
> Any suggestions from experienced Multi-testers is welcome here..
> Pacing safely takes practice and concentration