rec.autos.simulators

% >However, GPL will be purchased more by the general/gamer market, rather
% >than the dye_in_the_wool sim-heads (whether the folks at Papyrus realize
% >that is irrelevant).  ;)

% Mmm, and since when can you save NFS3 in mid-race?

If I need a save-game feature for a 4-8 lap race, then I indeed have no
life.  But, then again if I am "racing NFS3, I guess I don't have one!
<VBG>  ;-) etc.

% Let's keep things in perspective here. Long races are run with full
% damage - any casual gamer who picks up GPL and needs a save function
% within the three corners he will last must have a VERY short attention
% span. It's not going to happen.

% People are going to use the Novice, Inter and eventually Pro levels,
% and races at all of those levels can be completed within a reasonable
% length of time, certainly not long enough to require a save.

I don't quite understand the need to defend Papyrus for not putting in a
"save-race" feature.  The only grounds for which they can be defended is
that it was too difficult to do within the amount of development time to
get the product released.  Any other arguments are purely immaterial.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

When you get to longer races that is a different issue, and that is
when the subjects come up of (a) development time to implement a
feature that will be relevant only to a small percentage of the
market, and (b) one that for many detracts from the sim in that it is
supposed to give you an insight into being a driver of a real car in
as many ways as it can.

I don't know the reason behind Papy's decision and I suspect it was
more technical as Mike pointed out than commercial or atmosphere
related as I described above, but I know it would have been agonised
over before a decision was made. I was only pointing out that casual
gamers needn't panic as marc was describing.

Cheers!
John

---Jim

Once you've invested enough time the car control soon comes and with
it the real enjoyment of this sim. I didn't think much of Monza on my
first few drives, and learnt my lessons on the Glen, but now I have
that vital degree of car control (only a 1:34 at Monza so far though -
long way to go I know) Monza is sooooooo much more interesting.

Whilst I like the authenticity of showing your lap time a lap later,
it's quite annoying at the same time knowing I've just done a good lap
("Only a 1:35?! You have GOT to be kidding!") but have another to go
before I learn whether or not it was the case. Not a criticism by any
means, but it sure confused the hell out of me initially.

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK

Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

Cheers!

Marc
--
Marc J. Nelson
The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/
Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/

* Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

I know that it rules out enduro's, but the problem is that with
simulated endurance races, the cars are not being tested like in a
real race.  Back when my fellow drivers and I won the first Enduro 24
at Road America (ICR2), it was really pretty neat to do, but since the
sim was set with random breakdowns off, it was just a matter of the
drivers not making too big of a mistake.  I'm not sure I'd even want
to race in a sim enduro where the car could just 'break down'.  

Perhaps enduros are not totally ruled out though.  There is no reason
that you couldn't run several "stages" through the internet
(multiplayer!!!) with cumulative gaps added up through the stages.
What's the real difference between doing this or mailing race saves?
Well, the one thing I see is that e-mail/ICQ file transfers are gone,
and the possibility of save game files being corrupted is gone.

Just some thoughts,
Clark A (ace29 on TEN)

% True - and you're going to be running 4-8 lap races in GPL also, at
% least until you get good. No save should not scare off the casual
% gamer.

% When you get to longer races that is a different issue, and that is
% when the subjects come up of (a) development time to implement a
% feature that will be relevant only to a small percentage of the
% market, and (b) one that for many detracts from the sim in that it is
% supposed to give you an insight into being a driver of a real car in
% as many ways as it can.

We can stretch this argument until it gets thin.  Restarting a race event
because one crashed out on lap 32, isn't very realistic either.  Maybe
a real sim should only allow one to race one event just once a year in
real time.  You***up your one and only chance to win the American
Grand Prix and you'll have to wait until next year in "real time" (and
hope you still have a ride. <G>).

% I don't know the reason behind Papy's decision and I suspect it was
% more technical as Mike pointed out than commercial or atmosphere
% related as I described above, but I know it would have been agonised
% over before a decision was made. I was only pointing out that casual
% gamers needn't panic as marc was describing.

Actually the casual gamer ain't gonna panic much at all.  It's the more
hard core freaks that "need" a full length race and rely on a saverace
feature to accommodate their real lives.  To be perfectly honest, I don't
think there are many even here in r.a.s. land that run full length
NASCAR events in N2.  Most run 25-50% races (or even less).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Two.

And I have one...

Kurt

 http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS

    and

 http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

--
 Byron Forbes
 Captain of Team Lightning Bolt

 http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS

    and

 http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

If you are talking about an accurate _sim_ then that would be your
only option for accuracy. Anything less is a compromise, and that is
what we are discussing - degrees of compromise.

I would guess so, hence my response to Marc re the casual gamers (what
is a casual gamer anyway, someone lying back in an easy chair wearing
jeans and with a beer in hand?).

Cheers!
John

Well...............I ordered it from Electronics  boutique yesterday and was
told it would be shipped last night or today. Well I checked last night and
it's back ordered !

I would venture to say every simmer and some non-simmers in the USA bought
it and there's more simmers than we even imagined !

Tim A. Deatherage

"Admitted Sim ***"

I'm a busy 44 year CPA and I consider myself a hard core simmer (I'm on Kali
and Mplayer for Burnout, but I haven't had time to sign upon ten for NROS !)

and I run 5.00% races ! it's short and fun !

Tim A. Deatherage

"Admitted Sim ***"

% >We can stretch this argument until it gets thin.  Restarting a race event
% >because one crashed out on lap 32, isn't very realistic either.

% Perhaps you can stretch the argument until it gets thin but I prefer
% to do so only while it remains realistic. I don't see where you get
% the "not very realistic" - I'm not sure where you managed to buy your
% real-life car with the save race function and Shift-R but I must
% confess to never having seen one. I used to go home, fix my car, then
% go back to the racetrack and try again.

Well, my point is who the hell makes the "decision" when to cross the
barrier between a "realistic" simulation and an "enjoyable" simulation?
The "big" argument against a racesave feature being bandied about here,
is that it would be "unrealistic".

Having a racesave feature (if one could be implemented -- still think
this is more the real reason behind GPL not having one -- at least
within the resources Papy wished to spend on development), can only
benefit the user and shouldn't harm the "developer".  It's simply a
"comfort" feature that can make the product that much more enjoyable and
maybe then more profitable.  I guess I just can't buy the "argument"
that a racesave feature is "detrimental" to the "purity" of the
simulation.  This just stretches credulity.  If someone doesn't want to
use it because it would ruin their enjoyment of the "essence" of the
simulation, no one is forcing them to use  it.  If one finds that their
enjoyment of the simulation is enhanced by being able to "save a race"
and continue with it later, who is harmed?

A race save option would just be a nice feature to include, just like
have a full staffed garage to work on your car between races so you can
concentrate more on the job of racing (to use your point above regarding
"reality").

% >Maybe
% >a real sim should only allow one to race one event just once a year in
% >real time.  You***up your one and only chance to win the American
% >Grand Prix and you'll have to wait until next year in "real time" (and
% >hope you still have a ride. <G>).

% If you are talking about an accurate _sim_ then that would be your
% only option for accuracy. Anything less is a compromise, and that is
% what we are discussing - degrees of compromise.

Again, how does a racesave feature really compromise the beauty of GPL?
And if it does compromise it in your book, don't use it.  It certainly
won't compromise the wonders Papy did with this sim for me.

% >Actually the casual gamer ain't gonna panic much at all.  It's the more
% >hard core freaks that "need" a full length race and rely on a saverace
% >feature to accommodate their real lives.  To be perfectly honest, I don't
% >think there are many even here in r.a.s. land that run full length
% >NASCAR events in N2.  Most run 25-50% races (or even less).

% I would guess so, hence my response to Marc re the casual gamers (what
% is a casual gamer anyway, someone lying back in an easy chair wearing
% jeans and with a beer in hand?).

With a bag of chips (or is that crisps over there?) in the other hand!

Maybe we should do an informal poll and see what race lengths people run
(and under what conditions, online, offline league, solo, etc.).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Arguable. If having a racesave featured so detracted from development
time that the product and/or release date suffered then that would
harm both the product and the developer. We don't know so we can but
speculate.

I don't _personally_ buy that either, but I acknowledge that others
can and do. In online racing there is a BIG difference in racin
attitude between running with damage off and agreeing not to do
anything silly and actually running full damage and being forced no
to. There is a fundamental change in approach, thinking and attitude
and that is what GPL, by accident or design, forces you to do.

Who mentioned beauty, you were talking about realism. If you want the
most accurate simulation of racing then that, by definition, cannot
include a save. That was the only point, not about GPL.

Crisps. Chips are what you call "fries", or, curiouser and curiouser,
"French fries" (and the French call them fried potatoes - wierd)!

It might be an idea, although I reckon most people are struggling to
do complete a race right now - I know I was!

Cheers!
John