rec.autos.simulators

% Well, I'm in Italy, and also here only the real F1 and F1 sims fans
% will buy it. Other people think it's too difficult to handle.

If the "unexperienced" start with the easier cars and use some of the
aids, I feel that GPL will not be too difficult for them to handle.  It
will still offer a challenge to them.  If they like it and get hooked,
they may find themselves moving up to the more "difficult to handle"
cars and enjoy it that much more.  Even if they stay with the
"underpowered" cars and use the aids, there should be a enough staying
power in the simulation to keep them hooked.  Especially if they ever
try racing on-line.

I think "we" are judging GPL being "difficult to handle" because we are
too far superior to try the "easy" cars.  I mean we are men here not
the boys, right?  [Whoops, should say, "We are men & WOMEN here, not
boys and girls, right?"]  We won't mess around with quiche when we can
have steak!  

Try taking a look at GPL from a less-die-hard-racing-simmer point a view
and use the GP2 or GP3 cars.

% That's the point. For many people it's too difficult to drive compared
% with today's car sims. They don't think that this is obvious, since
% the cars are from 1967 so they are very different from today's.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% We both agreed that there hasnt been any real advertising push on behalf of
% Sierra and the sim will definitely have more life over in Europe.  

Since when has Papyrus ever had a "real advertising push"?  I still find
it odd that they have never run an ad campaign during televised NASCAR
events for their NASCAR products (the same goes for CART).  

As it is they may feel that their products speak for themselves and the
"word of mouth" is worth more than pouring money into TV ad campaigns
(which then means they most sell even more copies to recoup their
costs).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Scott is correct.  It's all about the frame of reference.  People who live
and die by this stuff will think it is the best thing in the world.
Meanwhile the other 99.9% of the world doesn't know and doesn't care.  I'm
sure it will sell very well... for a game of this type.  That is the
kicker, for a game of this type.  In the world wide scheme of things it
hardly matters.  Perhaps a gage would be how many boxes does the local EB
have on the shelf when it comes out.  Ten, twelve?  Figuring they are
supplying a community of maybe 10,000, that's pitiful in terms of sails
volume.  No wonder software companies who produce this sort of product are
small.  There just isn't that much business.

As an example, remember the 1993 Mazda RX-7?  Enthusiasts moaned and
complained no one made a "real" sports car then Mazda called everyone's
bluff.  It's all a matter of record what happened, it didn't sell.  I
believed 1995's sales figure was something like 6000 cars.  Any automaker
trying to make money would consider this a failure.

So when we see "the best ... ever" it's all relative,

Kurt

But the point was, how many *** sim players in the world are there who
will buy it?  I have no idea, maybe a half a million(?) which I think is
generous.  Out of 4.5 billion people that's nothing in the overall
(business) picture.

Kurt

Kurt

How many here own Longbow II?  Probably very few.  How many have it and
still play it?  Probably even fewer.  This helicopter is perhaps the best
sim of it's type, but I bet sales weren't much then what GPL will be.  It's
the same extreme nitch market that, as much as WE love it, doesn't mean
much to a company in terms of real sales.

I wonder how many people buy *** mags AND buy auto sims?  Not many me
thinks, as compared to something like (I hate to say) Cosmo.  Kind of sad
when you think about it.

Kurt

I might be mistaken, but I think you can't actually race the slower
(G2/G3) cars in GPL. Hotlapping yes, but not racing against the AI.
Don't know about online play, though. I seem to remember that Mike
Lescault said something to the effect that creating additional AI info
for the smaller cars would be too time consuming / expensive.

You forgot the small *** creatures from Alpha Centauri. :)

I'm afraid it's just the opposite way. If anything, the GPL demo
taught me humility. :) But I can't see the proverbial "average gamer"
investing a lot of time learning just to stay on the road. They
mastered Screamer and maybe even GP2 with "opposite lock help", so
they probably think they should break circuit records on their first
lap out of the pits. If they can't, they'll give the sim the "suck"
label. Maybe my view of the "*** masses" is a bit too cynical - I
hope so, but I doubt it.

BTW, great to have you back on the NG, Michael!

--
Wolfgang Preiss   \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

% I'm afraid it's just the opposite way. If anything, the GPL demo
% taught me humility. :) But I can't see the proverbial "average gamer"
% investing a lot of time learning just to stay on the road. They
% mastered Screamer and maybe even GP2 with "opposite lock help", so
% they probably think they should break circuit records on their first
% lap out of the pits. If they can't, they'll give the sim the "suck"
% label. Maybe my view of the "*** masses" is a bit too cynical - I
% hope so, but I doubt it.

But, then again, we learned our humility trying to tackle the
"cream-of-the-crop" car, the Lotus.  Looking at the fastest laps, no one
really seems serious about driving one of the lesser cars (which handle
better).  I bet you that many a long race against "human" drivers can be
won by someone driving something other than a Lotus.  The hot lappers
may be fast, but his maybe the case of the hare and the tortoise.  In
other words you have to finish in order to win.

Of course, I just want to look on the bright side of things at the
moment.  Any serious (and some semi-serious) simmer, will want this
product for the pure simulation of it (besides what else will they do
while they wait the eons until GP3? <G>).  I think that once we start
getting some decent (and varied) setups on the net for the un-mechanical
to try, more people will find they can actually drive these cars.

If nothing else, enough of us (and a few enough of "them") will buy this
product to keep the "cycle" alive until we get NASCAR and CART built
around the same engine (and the sales of the N2 1998/99 upgrade should
help tide them over as well).  GPL is a labor of love and not the
"bread-n-butter" for Papyrus.  That will be NASCAR, which will hopefully
finance the CART project.

% BTW, great to have you back on the NG, Michael!

Good to be back (things in my un-simulated world sorta took me away
momentarily -- nothing serious, but it did seem to demand most of my
time).  thanks!

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--
Mika Takala

I had found that full-linearity (far left) was almost impossible to drive...
but some of the fastest drivers I know use this setting (I had preferred to
stay about 3/4 to the right). However, after giving it a real chance (at
least 1/2 an hour of hell!), I slowly started to get used to it, and
adjusted my grip/reactions accordingly. Full-Linearity IS harder to control
on the straights, but I found it a lot faster, and more forgiving in the
corners.

Just to test something, I put the slider back to my previous usual position.
The steering seemed the same (maybe a little more steady), but my lap times
were 1.5 seconds SLOWER!!). After about 1/2 an hour, I switched the slider
back to full-left, and expected to experience the impossible control
feeling - was I ever surprised when I took off another 1/2 second per lap.

I've been playing the GPL demo since day 1, and STILL couldn't get below
1:10 at the Glen. After playing around with the linearity the other day, I
did my first sub-1:10 lap - 1:09.75!!

Don't give up.. it may seem hard to control at first, but with (a fair
amount of) practice, you will find the car easier to handle.

doktorB
http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl
For the GPL track files(Watkins Glen AND Monza), FAQs (I've got them!),
installation help, release date updates, PC GAMER preview pics, GPL box
covers and more!
---

I think 60K is a reasonable figure, mainly because (as the originator
of this thread pointed out - at least hinted at) Joe Consumer will be
presented with all the flash the various s/w companies can muster.
With GPL on the shelf next to F1RS (and assuming he's an F1 fan), he
may opt to plonk his hard-earned $50-bucks on something identifiable -
that being on a more contemporary scale/era.

Also, most of the buying-power in *** is by those of 16~25-years,
and product-ID is another deciding factor in GPL's success.  Shoot'em-
ups, NASCAR, Rally, Jet-sims and NFS-stuff will all be competing for
JC's all_mighty_buck.

Sierra/Papyrus missed several coups', most notably:
 - leaving-out the banking at Monza (it had been in the in-house
   version at one time!)
 - the lack of pitting (OK, so it was rare for F1 in those days, but
   Dan Gurney didn't have a save-race feature either!)
 - horrible sound (they've never been able to get this right - so why
   not farm it out?...naw, too easy...)
 - inaccuracies in the models (eagle, brabham, etc.)
 - Global_Hype_Scaling  - does it work?!  Who wants to run a race you
   can't win?!  Sheesh!

The worst of the above has to be Sierra's lack of marketing_prowess,
although some may point out that Cendant's woes may have been a
contibuting factor - which I doubt.  Questionable advertising (using
the stupid "...Welcome to 1967" ads), missed opportunities at most of
the historical events, and not keeping the online community a*** of
developments (it was there, just too little too late, IMHO) are what
killed GPL long before we got wind of it.

Amazing the amount of cash that has flowed (trickled)-through the R&D
channels since GPL's inception, and the lack_luster way in which Sierra
shows it off.  Shame on them.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love GPL, and it'll no-doubt remain
on my HD for many years.  Excellent online/LAN multiplay, fabulous
and humbling physics, drop-dead graphics, and ooooh - those tracks!!

Ahem...But let's be realistic...If this were, say "World Champion
Bungie Jumping of 1981" or something dissimilar from racing, and it
claimed to have the absolute_best_dog_gone_physics over any other
bungie-jumping title, would we (as Joe Consumer) buy it, what with
"Solar Ninja Bungie Jumper" and "Duke Bungie-II" next to it on the
shelf?  Me thinks not.  =P

Cheers!

Marc

--
Marc J. Nelson
The Sim Project - http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Extinct Track Archive - http://www.racesimcentral.net/

* Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

I showed him the demo of GPL on my system and he was simply
amazed....totally awestruck.  He never realised that such things were
possible, thinking that "computer games" were for kids and were simply
shoot-em-ups.

He sat down and tried the driving for 10 minutes, then another 20
minutes, then........well, he was there 2 hours later, still trying to
master the thing!

He is now intending to give his computer "a long-overdue upgrade" simply
to be able to run GPL on it.  In his own words, he may never be
competitive, but to be able to "drive" a period racing car in such a
realistic manner on some of the worlds greatest circuits is reason
enough.

This attitude, if the product is marketed and promoted in areas other
than just the PC *** media, *WILL* be reflected many times over.

I am using a joystick, zero linear input, and the steering is rock-solid
in a straight line and perfectly controllable in corners.  No
"twitchyness" at all.