rec.autos.simulators

we havent forbidden them anything except selling oil.  Its an alternative to
blowing them up.  which do you prefer?  Or do you prefer that rogue nations
like Iraq be allowed to operate in any manner they choose?  I personally
would like them to be prevented from developing weapons of mass destruction
which they can use against the US.  Is it preferable to let them develop
them and use them, and then respond?  Only if you cant see past the end of
your nose.

They need to do what they are expected to do by the US and the majority of
the rest of the world and the pressure will stop.  If they choose to spend
money on the military instead of their children, its not a choice we are
making for them and we are not responsible for it.  How much simpler can
that get for you to understand it?

sure we can, but most of the same peaceniks who rail against US using its
strength to fullfill its needs also prevent it from drilling for oil where
we have it on our own soil.

and we have a great record of destroying our enemies, so where's the
problem?

~daxe

Im guilty, so what?  I dont havbe a problem with it, you do, and you arent
terribly important, so it matters not.

and accurate.

BUYING things involves you economically, dimwit.

~daxe

based on what?

the education necessary is not free, so dispensing the knowledge isnt free,
either.  When things arent free, then it requires money to get them, which
is how things work in a capitalist country.  The theory is that if you want
something, you work for it and by doing so, you make the country stronger
and more productive instead of more weak, whiny and needy.

its easy.  go sit in an emergency ward.  a public hospital is required by
law to provide health care for everyone, and they do.  I lived just fine
without health insurance for about 20 years, during which time I required
quite a bit of medical care.

if you were stupid and shortsighted enough to end up homeless it is not
suprising to me that you couldnt find the abundant free healthcare.

~daxe

Wow! There is no such thing as bad luck in the USA! Nobody ever loses their job
due to a recession, changing markets, or other events beyond their control.
Amazing. And no startup dot-com went out of business. And Enron is doing fine
and keeping all of the employees busy.

Lobotomy?

Right Fester, only dumb people lose their jobs in daxe's America. Or get
evicted. Or are in an accident which eats up their life savings. Or ...

/Jens, astounded

        Why disgusting?

        As for strategic value, we lost battleships and support ships.  
Battleships, as important naval strategists had already realized, had
become obsolete.  Their era was passed.  The king of the seas was the
carriers.

        And note that none of our carriers were at Pearl Harbor, at least
one (IIRC) had left very shortly before the attack.

                                        -Tim

/Jens

Iraq is where civilization began 5,000 years ago. Call them what you want.

Like us?

We have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Why can't other countries
do the same?

That's not how it works.

Peaceniks? You must be an old man to keep using that silly term.

Not enough oil to make even the slightest bit of difference to our supply.
Any half wit knows that we need to develop alternative, clean energy
sources. We don't and won't do that as long as the oil companies elect our
presidents.

The problem is that we don't have that record. WE didn't win WW2. Millions
of others did quite a bit of work in WW1 and 2. Also, times have changed
quite a bit since then. Wars are no longer fought the same old way. Our
ENEMIES (people who are sick of having us bombing their people and dictating
how they should)live may end up blowing up oneof our nuclear power plants
soon. Imaginehow many people will die. Will you be able to claim victory
against anyone if they are capable of something like that?

David G Fisher

Please read Gordon Prange's "Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History" for an
extremely well researched and documented investigation of how the forces
stationed at Pearl Harbor were caught with their pants down.  It wasn't a
Roosevelt led *** to get the U.S. into the war.  It was basically an
incredible series of incompetent decisions by the military - primarily
those in charge of the naval and army troops on Pearl Harbor (Adm. Kimmell
and Gen. Short).  Nothing was kept from them - they were warned that war
was imminent several days before the attacks (based on intercepted Japanese
transmissions and other factors), but the commanders on Pearl Harbor made
some extremely poor decisions after getting that information.  They felt
that the Japanese military were not going to hit Pearl Harbor, but would
concentrate on the Phillipines. They were more concerned with saboteurs -
so they kept the planes unarmed on the ground. The list goes on.

That god-awful movie "Pearl Harbor" that came out last year, which showed
Admiral Kimmell receiving the warning after the attack, is further
perpetuating this silly myth.

And the U.S. didn't impose the oil embargo on the Japanese because we
disagreed with their form of government, as Uncle Fester explained it.  The
Japanese were well into the process of brutally taking over all of
southeast Asia.  The Japanese army were committing despicable atrocities on
their Chinese victims (e.g., live bayonet practice).  The U.S. wisely
thought it might be a good idea to stop providing their armies with their
much needed oil.

I'm as embarassed by the U.S.'s shady dealings and their role in human
rights abuses around the world (particularly in Central America) as anyone,
but let's at least be historically correct.

Dave Ewing

--
*****************************************************
David A. Ewing

*****************************************************

I read this http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html and it
certainly backs up what you say.

Sensible people knew we went to war with Iraq only because we want our
supply of oil to keep flowing. Nothing else.

David G Fisher

Does a burglar arrive at your house with a siren blasting?  Just how
gullible does Stinnett think we are?  If you're going to be cheated
out of your money it should at least be by a plausible lie.

The "McCullum" memorandum he spouts off so much about is only as
inflamatory as he can make it to sell his book.  Otherwise it's a
rather pragmatic view of the situation in the Pacific at the time.
Running around yelling, "the sky is falling" does not provide a
smoking gun.  Nobody's found such a smoking gun, and that's because
none exists.

Larry J

We raised all but one of the battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor, at the
expense of millions of dollars.  We built eleven more.  We had four
more beyond that ordered.  The battleships we had all saw active
service during the war.  None were retired until after the end of the
war.  Obsolete?

And one, USS Enterprise, was trying to get back into the harbor before
the attack.  She was so close she sent her planes ahead to Ford
Island, to arrive _during_ the attack.  The carriers sailed on the
orders of Adm. Kimmel in Hawaii, not Washington, and as far as DC knew
Enterprise would be in the harbor when the attack happened (if you
accept the stupid premise that they knew and did nothing, a truly
moronic concept) and Lexington would be a lone carrier, 400 miles from
Hawaii, and facing SIX Japanese carriers.  What the heck kind of plot
would allow this?

Folks, the Just Let It Happen (tm) BS is for looneys and loosers.
Choose which list you with to have your name placed in.

Larry J

PS, William Halsey commanded Enterprise's group.  Think "Bull" Halsey
would allow them to Just Let It Happen (tm)?  You probably wouldn't
want to suggest that in person.

[Huge SNIP]

This is actually quite an interesting and discussion IMHO. I tend to think
you are closest to the actual facts David... but I'm still a sucker for
*** theories so I'd like to keep that door open for further mind
games anyway ;)

Mikkel

You have to be joking here, right?

Actually no politicians were asking questions about his sex life to
begin with, that information came out during his *** harrassment
trial with Paula Jones. If not for the Jones trial, those stories
(Lewinsky, Willey) would never have surfaced.  Here's a thought:  If
you're a public official and you don't want your sex life to become
public,  then it's probably not a good idea to have Arkansas State
Troopers bring a nitwit receptionist to your hotel room and then
proceed to drop your pants in front of her.  And to think the media
made Clinton into some sort of genius. Scary.

BTM

Nah.  While I don't find her attractive or anything like that, or even
particularly charismatic, her ideals are pretty much the opposite of
everything her husband did as president.  She was even nominated by a
second party when she ran for Senator (the Working Party IIRC) because
of her vocal support of the middle class (whereas more working class
jobs were lost during her husband's presidency than any other).  I'm
not going to say I totally agree with her on everything (her health
care reform plan was way too liberal for my taste) I can't really
think of any politician who is closer to my own views.

Good point.

Clinton was awful.  I do think he's a very intelligent man, and that
he did some good things in office, but for the most part he's probably
the least effective Democrat we've had as President.  He was too wishy
washy, to unwilling to actually commit to anything.  I always felt
like he just sort of coasted through his presidency instead of taking
real action.

Jason

Umm... it's called sovereignty.  Why does the US try to play World
Dictator?

We'd have nothing to fear if we didn't have the *** habit of poking
our noses in others' business & making enemies aplenty because of it.
You keep forgetting... we are the only nation to have used these things
against others.  We may have a case of national guilty conscience to
think others are looking to do to us what we've done before.

Who the hell are we to tell others how to run their lives?

DGF did a fine job answering this.  I'll bow to his summation. :-)

You've been listening to too much propaganda.  The only enemies we've
destroyed are countries that are so much smaller & weaker than ourselves
(Panama anybody?)that we ought to feel ashamed.  The high school senior
who can beat the stuffing out of a second grader has nothing to brag
about.

--

Fester

"Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no
brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?"
                                         from alt.linux.mandrake NG