rec.autos.simulators

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

Larry W. Jewe

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Larry W. Jewe » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:50:32


> Roosevelt wanted to get involved in World War II but
> Americans didn't want a part of it.  He tried to instigate Germany,
> hoping they'd attack the boats of supplies we were giving England, but
> Hitler knew better than to provoke us.  So, instead, he neglected to
> tell the navy stationed at Pearl Harbor about an advancing Japanese
> fleet (which we had known about over a week prior to the incident)

I'll never understand why this garbage keeps getting repeated.  The US
knew nothing about the approach of the Kido Butai.  How could we?  It
was the best kept secret of a people very, very good at keeping
secrets.  Add to this the utter stupidity of beginning a war with most
of your heavy units on the bottom of the harbor and you have got to
wonder why anyone with more than two functioning synapeses would say
such things.

Folks, the Japanese did not reveal themselves, we did not detect them
and only an utter, total, complete moron would Just Let It Happen
(tm).

Larry J

daxe

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by daxe » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:25:23


but that still doesnt make his citizens out respobnsibility

~daxe

daxe

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by daxe » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:32:05


Im not sure either, but I do know that if SH has the where withall to get
stuff to build up his military, which I am sure is also denied him, then he
can get the meds, too.

I think it is not a blanket sanction, but rather a prohibition of Iraq
selling its oil to get monies to buy what they want.  I am further sure that
someone is buying their oil anyways.

depends on who you ask.  some people think health care is a right, so they
would say there are plenty.

Iraqi children are not being punished by anyone but the people whose
responsibility it is to care for them.

so you steal the simulators you drive and only steal those written by your
approved minorities?

~daxe

jason moy

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by jason moy » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:17:35


> You may opt to be dropped off in Somalia or Iraq.

I love how every single American twit tries to show how mighty and
good the United States is by comparing us to third world nations.
Your example is even better since both of those countries largely suck
because of our meddling (I'm talking historically long-term here, not
just recently, although that applies too).

Why doesn't your spam use England or Germany instead?  Or France,
mmmm.  Or Belgium, or Luxembourg, or Austria, or Spain, or Ireland, or
Denmark, or Norway, or Sweden (mmm...neutrality + an air force to die
for) or the other 5 million places that would be perfectly comparable
to America in terms of the standard of living.  Oh yeah, it wouldn't
be mindless "look at how good we've got it" propaganda then.

I'd take a one-way ticket to London or Berlin or Stockholm or Vienna
or Paris or Amsterdam or <insert moderately large European or Canadian
city here> any damn day of the week.  Heck, give me a free trip to a
remote location in Sweden and an opportunity to fly the Gripen or the
Viggen for a living and I'd be in heaven.

And while I'm ranting, someone should produce a Swedish Air Force
flight sim.

Jason

jason moy

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by jason moy » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:26:47


> I seem to
> recall a number of similar incidents between anti-Clinton protesters
> and security when Clinton was being impeached and accused of***.

Uh,***?  ***sex between consenting ***s may be illegal in 3/4th
of the United States (including DC IIRC) but it's hardly***.  Sure,
cheating on someone, especially a kickass woman like Hillary, makes
Bill a real dirtbag in my book, not to mention that he lied about it
under oath, but the real sleazebags in that situation were the people
who were asking him questions about his sex life to begin with.  One
second American politicians want to rid the earth of ***ography, the
next they waste my taxable income to investigate someone's private sex
life.  It's sort of like funding terrorism while...er, n/m I won't go
there.

Jason

Uncle Feste

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Uncle Feste » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:13:11




> > > Just out of curiousity, if Saddam H. can afford to rebuild his military,
> > why
> > > isn't he paying for the meds for his own citizens?

> > > ~daxe

> > He wears the black hat you know.... not a nice guy by anyones standard.
> > He simply does not give a damn and we ought to stay above his standards.

> but that still doesnt make his citizens out respobnsibility

> ~daxe

Maybe they are not our responsibility.  But that still does not give us
the right to forbid anyone from providing their children needed
medicines.  That country cannot meet all it's needs internally, it needs
help from the outside.  Just like we cannot meet all our *oil* needs.
Any regular citizens who at one time may have supported us privately
likely do not do so anymore because of this.  The US has a bad habit of
turning it's friends into enemies.

--

Fester

"Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no
brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?"
                                         from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Uncle Feste

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Uncle Feste » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:33:42


>       I'm not 100% sure about this topic at the moment, but my current
> understanding is as follows.

>       As a result of U.S. (U.N., NATO, etc) sanctions against Iraq,
> which include the importation of *** of the developed world, there are
> children, obviously oblivious to the stupidity of those who have gone
> before them (both sides of fence), lying screaming and dying in
> hospitals all across Iraq. To say that Saddam is solely responsible for
> that is the spontaneous dribble of a fool. An economic sanction means
> that, no matter how much money you have, you can't import this and that!
> Right?

>    A couple of questions    1/ How many people in the U.S. are currently
> being punished by having their children deprived of needed medication?

If you're a minority or poor-white, way too many unfortunately.  Too
many believe only the better off deserve health care.  All humans
deserve it.  Try getting health care if you have no insurance & no job!
I was homeless at one time, about 15 years ago, so I know first hand how
we treat these people.

Most likely because the Kurds are the wrong race. >:-/  You don't see us
doing these things to European countries. (Not that I think we *should*
mind you!)

Amen.

--

Fester

"Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no
brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?"
                                         from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Uncle Feste

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Uncle Feste » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:50:19



> > Roosevelt wanted to get involved in World War II but
> > Americans didn't want a part of it.  He tried to instigate Germany,
> > hoping they'd attack the boats of supplies we were giving England, but
> > Hitler knew better than to provoke us.  So, instead, he neglected to
> > tell the navy stationed at Pearl Harbor about an advancing Japanese
> > fleet (which we had known about over a week prior to the incident)

> I'll never understand why this garbage keeps getting repeated.  The US
> knew nothing about the approach of the Kido Butai.  How could we?  It
> was the best kept secret of a people very, very good at keeping
> secrets.  Add to this the utter stupidity of beginning a war with most
> of your heavy units on the bottom of the harbor and you have got to
> wonder why anyone with more than two functioning synapeses would say
> such things.

The US are hardly strangers in provoking others to attack us.  We employ
these measures in order to help stir our half-illiterate populace into a
war-frenzy so our Govt can pursue those they wish to in an almost
unlimited manner.  We knew these attacks were coming.  Long before the
internet, back in the 1960's, my mother had told me about it.  How we
had imposed economic sanctions on Japan (apparently we didn't agree with
their form of govt.  Who the hell are WE to dictate to them how they
govern themselves??) , how the Japanese leaders had come here trying to
find a way out & then leaving in disgust when we refused.  What do you
think will happen when one country tries to starve another out & that
country has enough resources to mount an attack?  This isn't Rocket
Science here folks.  It was a deliberate provocation by the US.

What really floors me is that not a single person here has mentioned how
we got involved in the Gulf War.  Nobody recalls the name April
Glaspie?  Saddam, who we backed & supported for many years, asked our
opinion/permission on invading what he felt were "stolen" oil fields in
Kuwait.  He was told by the US we had no interest & basically gave him
the green light to proceed.  Once he did just that, we go freaking
ballistic!  The rest, as they say, is history...

Welcome to the Government of the United States. (The United Police
States of America)

--

Fester

"Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no
brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?"
                                         from alt.linux.mandrake NG

Byron Forbe

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Byron Forbe » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:54:39

   Try, try, try to separate yourself from the guilt. At least you're
intelligent enough to feel some. Assuming you're a citizen of a NATO
country, and a tax payer as well, THEN YOU ARE GUILTY! And I won't get
into an argument with you about degrees of guilt. Trying to stick it all
on Saddam is hopelessly crude and convenient.

   As for your assertion that I'm a thief - sorry. Once again you jump
to wrong conclusions. It's as simple a situation as me just not paying
taxes! Dunno why you would think anything else actually!




> >       I'm not 100% sure about this topic at the moment, but my current
> > understanding is as follows.

> Im not sure either, but I do know that if SH has the where withall to get
> stuff to build up his military, which I am sure is also denied him, then he
> can get the meds, too.

> >   An economic sanction means
> > that, no matter how much money you have, you can't import this and that!
> > Right?

> I think it is not a blanket sanction, but rather a prohibition of Iraq
> selling its oil to get monies to buy what they want.  I am further sure that
> someone is buying their oil anyways.

> >    A couple of questions    1/ How many people in the U.S. are currently
> > being punished by having their children deprived of needed medication?

> depends on who you ask.  some people think health care is a right, so they
> would say there are plenty.

> >     2/ Why should these Iraqi children be punished for the gutless
> > failure to kill Saddam by the U.N. forces. They were knocking on his
> > door when some genius said "Nah, I've had enough. Lets go home and have
> > a beer". Then the betrayal of the Curds.............. When do the right
> > people get screwed here?

> Iraqi children are not being punished by anyone but the people whose
> responsibility it is to care for them.

> >     Personally, I cut myself away spiritually and economically from the
> > anglo saxon/white english speaking world (hmmm, I'll have to revise this
> > because the head of the U.N. is a black man last I looked) a couple of
> > decades ago now. This type of obscenity reminds me I'm on the right
> > path.

> so you steal the simulators you drive and only steal those written by your
> approved minorities?

> ~daxe

Andre Warrin

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Andre Warrin » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:35:07



I must say I find this whole discussion very interesting, and I was
kinda shocked when I read Jasons post about how the US gov knew the
Japanse were going to attack Pearl Harbour a week before it happened..
Having a hard time believing that.. simply because the thought is too
disgusting to be true. But without any proof, discussing this topic is
rather useless right..

Anyway, what you just wrote amazes me even more Uncle F.
Saddam -asked- the USA permission to invade Kuwait?
Is their any kind of proof of this?

Andre

Uncle Feste

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Uncle Feste » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:15:06




> >we got involved in the Gulf War.  Nobody recalls the name April
> >Glaspie?  Saddam, who we backed & supported for many years, asked our
> >opinion/permission on invading what he felt were "stolen" oil fields in
> >Kuwait.  He was told by the US we had no interest & basically gave him
> >the green light to proceed.  Once he did just that, we go freaking
> >ballistic!  The rest, as they say, is history...

> I must say I find this whole discussion very interesting, and I was
> kinda shocked when I read Jasons post about how the US gov knew the
> Japanse were going to attack Pearl Harbour a week before it happened..
> Having a hard time believing that.. simply because the thought is too
> disgusting to be true. But without any proof, discussing this topic is
> rather useless right..

Not having a lot of time at the moment, I did a quick search on Amazon
under FDR to see if anything turned up.  What I got was this:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
And some of the quotes within fall exactly in line with what my own
mother told me some 30+ years ago.  Among them:

"It was not long after the first Japanese bombs fell on the American
naval ships at Pearl Harbor
 that *** theories began to circulate, charging that Franklin
Roosevelt and his chief
 military advisors knew of the impending attack well in advance. Robert
Stinnett, who served in
 the U.S. Navy with distinction during World War II, examines recently
declassified American
 documents and concludes that, far more than merely knowing of the
Japanese plan to bomb
 Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt deliberately steered Japan into war with
America."

"Although obviously troubled by his discovery of a systematic plan of
deception on the part of the American government, Stinnett does not take
deep issue with its outcome. Roosevelt, he writes, faced powerful
opposition from isolationist forces, and, against them, the Pearl Harbor
attack was "something that had to be endured in order to stop a greater
evil--the Nazi invaders in Europe who had begun the Holocaust and were
poised to invade England."

"What *is* new is Stinnett's discovery of a memorandum by Arthur
McCollum, a Navy lieutenant commander and Japan expert, outlining an
eight-point scheme to back the Japanese into a corner and provoke an
attack."

"Whether he needed McCollum to outline them for him or not, FDR
unquestionably adopted policies, most significantly an embargo on trade
with Japan, that any knowledgeable person should have seen would
dramatically increase the likelihood of war."

Just a quick glimpse through & a cut & paste. :-)  Hmmm... at $12.80, I
may have to buy this one for myself.

I'm sure there has to be some out there.  I distinctly remember reading
about this in the days immediately after the Gulf War ended on CNN.com.
Only lasted a few days, maybe a week or two tops.  Then you never heard
anything about it ever again.  Just did a quick search on CNN.com under
April Glaspie & came up empty.  (No surprise there.)  I'll look some
later when I have more time. :-)

Holy cow, hold the boat!!  I did a quick search on Dogpile before I hit
send.  This one is fascinating.  Not only does it back up my stance, but
read the section on oil prices.  Anyways... does this guy sound like the
monster towards us that our media whipped everybody up into believing?
His response later after we went off on him was anger, naturally, after
such a betrayal.  Here's the link, there are many more sites thru
Dogpile.com searching for April Glaspie.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/;Have Fun!

--

Fester

"Is it that we need a nobrainer Linux desktop OS for people with no
brains or should people do a little more reading and smarten up?"
                                         from alt.linux.mandrake NG

rik zeppeli

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by rik zeppeli » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:28:01


Surely you don't need to lie to support your position.
Well I take that back, you have some very weak arguments. Helthcare is free
for poor people in the USA, and indeed is the largest expense for most
county hospitals, which pass the costs on to us the taxpayers.

rik zeppeli

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by rik zeppeli » Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:33:13



> > Thats quite a scary report. Ive always been suspicious of americas
massive,
> > terrifying war machine. Maybe they want the whole world to live under
their
> > banner (rather like pre ww2 germany). IMO the world is about to become a
lot
> > less nice place to live.

> That's basically how I've seen them for quite a while now.  Hitler with
> nukes.

> --

FESTER!!- sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone
think your an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Good grief.
Andre Warrin

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Andre Warrin » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:34:44



Holy crap.. I stayed out of this 'America' discussion because the
whole situation is SO damn complicated, that I think only a few people
really know the whole picture..
A depressing thought just overcomes me that maybe nobody really gets
the whole picture..

Anyway, discussing with people like Captain America is totally
useless, I'm affraid people like him are just as narrow-minded as the
people of Iraq and Afghanistan who also only believe what they hear
from their beloved leaders.

I only had a couple of minutes to quickly read the links you gave me
(at work), and it sure is fascinating.. still not 100% solid proof
ofcourse, we will probably never know the whole truth, but if only
part of this report is true.. Then just like Captain America even I
have been blinded what I saw on CNN..

I think I need to drive a couple of laps on the Ring to arrange my
thoughts about this stuff :-/

Andre

Captain Americ

Way OT -- Patriotic outburst here

by Captain Americ » Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:59:06


He's talking about Jennifer Flowers. You're as forgetful as Slick
Willie himself.

As far as consenting ***s... If Clinton had the character to admit
he had an affair, he would have escalated the whole mess to the point
he did. This nincompoop ended up commiting perjury over a blow job.
He wanted to cement his legacy in history, and he sure as hell did.


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