Jonathan Harker <Limeyvi...@spamtoNull.com> wrote in message
news:7ercm3$5u5$1@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>Machiavellian <rr...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>news:pASP2.35023$Ll.5153@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net...
>> You know something, when AGP 4X shows this real benefit then I will
>believe
>> in AGP until then its worth nothing to me (unless I have a Savage 4 ;).
>If
>> you ask me AGP means nothing until S3TC becomes a reality on current
>> hardware. The TNT 2 does not have it and neither does the V3, the only
>> other company I have read that will be supporting it is ATI with their
max
>> card (but only in D3D). He keep hearing about the great nirvana called
>AGP,
>> but as of now nothing has made it a reality.
>Would you mind telling me what S3TC has to do with 4XAGP? What's important
>to me about 4XAGP texturing is the near 1-gig/sec bandwidth it will be able
>to use. I don't give a rat's liver about S3TC right now. I want 4XAGP
merely
>because of the raw bandwidth it will provide--that's *real* bandwidth.
4XAGP
>will mark the first time the transfer bandwidth will be there for AGP to
>make a noticeable difference. I want to buy a card that will support 4XAGP
>so that I don't have to buy a brand new video card at the same time that I
>replace my motherboard when the Camino chipset is released.
You know something, 4XAGP is about as much vapor as the NV10 or Rampage.
You try to argue for everyone else that this is a feature they should
consider but since Intel will probably get 4XAGP out in late 99, its
worthless to me. S3TC is here, now and I can definitely see how it will
take advantage of 4XAGP compared to the other cards. Until I actually see
the performance of 4XAGP, I just cannot get hyped for it. I have seen S3TC
and there is no doubt in my mind, its the technology to beat in 99 and
probably 2000 (T&L will give it a go if its implemented correctly). Since a
lot of people have made so much fuss about 2XAGP and how its so important to
have texturing across the APG bus, it turned out that it was about as useful
as having large texture support for 2048. Yes its a good number but try to
run a game with textures that large and see how great this feature is.
>> No, the hardcore gamer will upgrade but people who are looking for a
>> signficant improvement to their current hardware would just wait for the
>> real thing and not the placeholder. I for one am not looking for the
>> Placeholder card but something that will really improve my setup.
>Fine, you can call it whatever you like. If you chose to call almost double
>TNT1 performance a "placeholder" that's fine, as well as double the ram,
>etc. That knocks you out of the V3 category as well...but that's fine with
>me. To each his own...
I have said as much in other post. The TNT 2 doesn't wow me and the V3
definitely doesn't. You keep saying, wait for the TNT 2 to come out before
anyone buys a V3, I say wait for the S3 Savage, Matox G400 Max, Permedia 3
and ATI pro. Everyone of those cards have everything the TNT 2 has but also
separate themselves with added features. I am sorry but the TNT 2 is just a
faster TNT and if the other cards hold true to what they are saying, they
look to be the better choice between now and June. I think everyone feels
they will see the Ultra TNT 2 when the other OEMs start shipping the TNT 2
but I think this is way wrong. I think we will not see the TNT 2 Ultra
until probably mid to late June. Shoot, if you look at Matox, they are
talking big time about their G400 max. Matrox says the G400 Max will
definitely be better than the Best from 3dfx and Nvidia. The TNT 2 and the
V3 are not the only game in town and the other chip makers are not sitting
still and letting Nvidia and 3dfx run away with the performance marks this
cycle.
>> Why make it at all this early. Why would they take the risk when they
>could
>> have waited until after the TNT 2 shipped and established itself.
>Ummm....'cause maybe nVidia doesn't see it as a "risk?" Other than that, I
>don't know--you'd have to ask them yourself.
No, maybe Nvidia haven't thought it out all that well. On this point, its
total speculation and I guess we will have to revisit this one when Nvidia
next card arrives.
>> Well, since you are comparing when the next real hardware upgrade will
>come
>> from either company, no microscopic was not what I was thinking about.
>My point was that 3dfx is already behind the "features" curve so much when
>shipping products are compared--that if you think the TNT2 window is
"small"
>that would have to mean the V3 window is much smaller still.
Well, if anyone plan on keeping the card they buy in the next couple of
months for about a year 1/2, I say neither the TNT 2 or the V3 is a great
choice but we will see.
>> I think 3dfx knows quite well what they have to do and its quite obvious
>> that they will do it.
>That's a really interesting statement. 3dfx has not announced any product
at
>all with features that bring the Voodoo chipset up to even TNT1 standards.
And judging by 3dfx track record, they will not until they are ready. They
will not make stupid statements and hope they can deliver by the time they
stated.
>Indeed, Gary Tarolli spends his time trying to convince people that 16-bits
>is all they need. He doesn't *mention* any of the other features we've
>discussed-
And why should he. He is arguing current technology not future hardware
they have in development. Seems quite silly of him to mention something
that is not even out and that everyone will hold him to when their hasn't
been a official statement.
>-and when pressed about it, reverts into spasmodic monologues that
>concern the "workarounds" that can be done with the present Voodoo
>architecture to "simulate" these features.
Well, you got that right, current hardware. This whole thing goes into the
same thing about the competitive advantage point I stated in other threads.
>Are you operating in the realm of blind faith, here? You must be, because
>that which is "quite obvious" to you is not obvious at all to me.
Maybe you are holding on to old prejudices that you need to clear your mind
of. I see any company in this business working their butts off to separate
their products from the rest. Just look at S3, ATI and Matox with their new
offerings. They are not waiting for 3dfx or Nvidia to show them what the
next feature to add, they are inventing and innovating themselves. 3dfx is
no different from any of the rest of the chip makers, they had a lot of work
integrating all their technologies into one chip and now they can
concentrate on adding the needed components to make Y2K the year like the
one when the V1 hit the scenes. IF 3dfx cannot do it, someone else will, as
I have said before, 3dfx and Nvidia are not the only company in town.
>It's
>looking more and more like 3dfx has laid *all* its cards on the table this
>year. For their sake, I certainly hope not. But nothing about 3dfx's
>position is "obvious" to me at all, I'm afraid.
Only because you want to look at the worst case scenario. As far as 3dfx
putting all their cards on the table for this year, I think not.
>> Well since a lot of people still have Voodoo 1, I think your estimate is
>far
>> from conclusive
>"Lots of people" still have 486's, don't they? But that doesn't alter the
>fact that 486's, like Voodoo 1's, aren't being made anymore.
No, V2s are still being made and quite cheap at that
>What on earth
>has the Voodoo 1 got to do with the *fact* that 3dfx has got to get out a
>product with 32-bit color, a minimum of 32-megs of ram, a stencil buffer,
>AGP texturing, and the like? I can't see that it has *anything* to do with
What it means is, everyone do not feel they need to upgrade to the latest
feature until they see a reason to. I have not see a real reason to upgrade
to 32 bit color, 32 megs, stencil buffer. and definitely not AGP texturing.
>it. ANd 3dfx has no choice in the matter, either. The V3 is the V1
>architecture--modified and improved. As a result, it is showing its age.
>3dfx will need a lot more than the V3 to be a big player in the 3d market
in
>Y2k. That's guaranteed--you can smoke it and take it to the bank...:)
Come on here, do you actually think the V3 will be the only offering for 99,
Gary himself even said that the V3 will be the slowest thing they ship this
year. Like I said before, you look at the worst case scenario and I will
look at the mid to best case. We will see which scenario will be. It seems
to me, that you are looking at things in a very narrow light which is quite
common for a consumer.
>So that you don't misunderstand me--I'm NOT anti-3dfx. But the V3, compared
>to the likes of the TNT2, does absolutely nothing for me at all.
The TNT 2 in light of ATI pro, S3 Savage, Matrox G400 Max and especially
the Permedia 3 (I really like the specs on this card) does absolutely
nothing for me as well (yes this goes for the V3).
*IF* 3dfx
>brings a *competitve* product to market there's a very good chance I'll buy
>it--I enjoyed my V1 and V2 over the last few years--a LOT. But if all I've
>got to look forward to is Gary Tarolli consistently insulting my
>intelligence by asking me to believe things that I know ARE NOT SO and
If you know it so much, why are you wasting the man time with questions
??????
What you *Know* as a truth for you might not be the same with others. Your
world is not the only one on this planet. Your experiences do not shape
everyone else in this NG!!! If you do not believe what the man is saying
just state it and go about your buisness.
>evasively dodging questions--then forget it. I'm out of the 3dfx camp for
>good.
I do not know what you are talking about evasively dodging your questions.
To be perfectly honest, Gary knows how to post on this Group better than
most of us. The last thing Gary needs to do is get into a pissing match
with every little nick pick every poster can
...
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