rec.autos.simulators

BTW, I am trying to find out what future Flight Sims will support 32bit
color.  Jonathan, can you help me out here?  You seem to be very
knowledgable.  Perhaps you could name a few for me.

No, the *** gamer will upgrade but people who are looking for a
signficant improvement to their current hardware would just wait for the
real thing and not the placeholder.  I for one am not looking for the
Placeholder card but something that will really improve my setup.

Why make it at all this early.  Why would they take the risk when they could
have waited until after the TNT 2 shipped and established itself.

Well, since you are comparing when the next real hardware upgrade will come
from either company, no microscopic was not what I was thinking about.
in.

I think 3dfx knows quite well what they have to do and its quite obvious
that they will do it.

Well since a lot of people still have Voodoo 1, I think your estimate is far
from conclusive

RAS = GPL=Glide=Voodoo
'nuff said!!

This groups sounds suspiciously like another "religious cult" I know
all too well...  MAC Users.  Get over it.  They're figgin' VIDEO
BOARDS.  PERIOD.

You all act like your mother designed the board and now it's your
sworn duty to defend her honor.  Get over it.  3dfx makes some pretty
kick-ass boards and "now they've got company" (for those who want to
sling the "NVidia ain't shipped it yet" tripe:  "the company is now
knocking on the door").

The beautiful thing that seems to be escaping all of your pathetic
little, hype-washed, marketing minion brains is that for the first
time in a LONG TIME (like nearly forever), 3dfx has some stiff
competition that will give them a true rival in the ***
marketspace.  This is a GOOD thing.  NVidia is now pushing 3dfx (STB
now, doh!), via competition to lower prices AND develop better
products.  This is in no small part due to the fact that MANY "would
be" (and former!) 3dfx customers bought TNT boards this winter.  Ouch!
Santa was NOT as kind to 3dfx as he coulda been.  And, with the advent
of the TNT2, the V3 needed to be priced more competitively, OR ELSE.

SPECIAL NOTE to all you folks who went out and paid LESS for a V3 2000
or 3000 than any single V2 this past week:

D'ya think STB released a BETTER card than a V2 at LESS than the cost
of nearly any currently available 12MB V2 (as of last week) just
'cause they just felt like it?  Or, perhaps, out of the goodness of
their hearts?!  You should all thank NVidia, even if you HATE the
company, their boards, and their 'trolls'.  Without the TNT and the
soon-to-be TNT2, no doubt you'd be either still drooling over a $200+
V3 at EB or sucking it up and doling out yet again TOO MUCH cash (ala
V2) just to get your hands on a good 3D Video board.  You're kidding
yourselves if you think for a minute that the pricing wasn't heavily
influenced by the sudden arrival of legitimate alternative.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

If you'll stop the whining long enough, you might realize that, no
matter WHICH chip maker you choose to pledge undying allegiance to,
the existence of the competition will drive board development forward
and prices downward.  Isn't this what you all REALLY want?  Or is the
mind-numbing, intoxicating stupor that comes along with being a troll
just too much for you to give up?!?

Me and my ATI Rage II/8MB and CL V2 8MB are merrily puttin' along as
we watch the competition heat up and head into the early summer, when
the choices will begin to expand and I can exercise my right to choose
based on what I think is important and not what I'm being TOLD is
important.  Ahhh, the liberty of choice and the healthy does of
confusion that comes along with it.  Maybe that's what's got you all
down.  You might have to make a choice and it just might KILL you to
THINK FOR YOURSELVES for a change.

Come wipe me, I'm done.

-LB

On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 16:52:24 GMT, "Ken Beard"

Just went from a Monster Voodoo2 SLI/Matrox Millenium II AGP Trio to
the single 3dfx Voodoo 3000 this week.  Framerate performance, in
common resolutions, are about the same as before with the lead going
to v3000.  3d colors are much more vibrant on v3000 than SLI...also
the 3d picture is much cleaner and sharper (including my desktop
...1280x768 on my NEC 21inch for reference...no pass-through...image
quality on par with Matrox!  Thanks 3dfx!).  Actually, the 3d quality
was a pleasant surprise, considering all the negative talk regarding
3dfx's 22bit appoach vs 32bit and the idea that the v3000 still
maintains the voodoo image curse!  Thankfully, that simply isn't the
case.  Of course, now I also have 2 free slots and a whole lot more
flexibility in terms of resolutions, api, and hardware (to boot)!

P.S.
My take on the whole 16vs32bit affair??   I've seen bigger image
quality differences comparing different brands of monitors on display
at the wiz.  This leads me to think, if it don't look good to
you...you should probably blame your monitor 1st!

Rufus

This groups sounds suspiciously like another "religious cult" I know
all too well...  MAC Users.  Get over it.  They're figgin' VIDEO
BOARDS.  PERIOD.

You all act like your mother designed the board and now it's your
sworn duty to defend her honor.  Get over it.  3dfx makes some pretty
kick-ass boards and "now they've got company" (for those who want to
sling the "NVidia ain't shipped it yet" tripe:  "the company is now
knocking on the door").

The beautiful thing that seems to be escaping all of your pathetic
little, hype-washed, marketing minion brains is that for the first
time in a LONG TIME (like nearly forever), 3dfx has some stiff
competition that will give them a true rival in the ***
marketspace.  This is a GOOD thing.  NVidia is now pushing 3dfx (STB
now, doh!), via competition to lower prices AND develop better
products.  This is in no small part due to the fact that MANY "would
be" (and former!) 3dfx customers bought TNT boards this winter.  Ouch!
Santa was NOT as kind to 3dfx as he coulda been.  And, with the advent
of the TNT2, the V3 needed to be priced more competitively, OR ELSE.

SPECIAL NOTE to all you folks who went out and paid LESS for a V3 2000
or 3000 than any single V2 this past week:

D'ya think STB released a BETTER card than a V2 at LESS than the cost
of nearly any currently available 12MB V2 (as of last week) just
'cause they just felt like it?  Or, perhaps, out of the goodness of
their hearts?!  You should all thank NVidia, even if you HATE the
company, their boards, and their 'trolls'.  Without the TNT and the
soon-to-be TNT2, no doubt you'd be either still drooling over a $200+
V3 at EB or sucking it up and doling out yet again TOO MUCH cash (ala
V2) just to get your hands on a good 3D Video board.  You're kidding
yourselves if you think for a minute that the pricing wasn't heavily
influenced by the sudden arrival of legitimate alternative.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

If you'll stop the whining long enough, you might realize that, no
matter WHICH chip maker you choose to pledge undying allegiance to,
the existence of the competition will drive board development forward
and prices downward.  Isn't this what you all REALLY want?  Or is the
mind-numbing, intoxicating stupor that comes along with being a troll
just too much for you to give up?!?

Me and my ATI Rage II/8MB and CL V2 8MB are merrily puttin' along as
we watch the competition heat up and head into the early summer, when
the choices will begin to expand and I can exercise my right to choose
based on what I think is important and not what I'm being TOLD is
important.  Ahhh, the liberty of choice and the healthy does of
confusion that comes along with it.  Maybe that's what's got you all
down.  You might have to make a choice and it just might KILL you to
THINK FOR YOURSELVES for a change.

Come wipe me, I'm done.

-LB

On Fri, 09 Apr 1999 16:52:24 GMT, "Ken Beard"

Just went from a Monster Voodoo2 SLI/Matrox Millenium II AGP Trio to
the single 3dfx Voodoo 3000 this week.  Framerate performance, in
common resolutions, are about the same as before with the lead going
to v3000.  3d colors are much more vibrant on v3000 than SLI...also
the 3d picture is much cleaner and sharper (including my desktop
...1280x768 on my NEC 21inch for reference...no pass-through...image
quality on par with Matrox!  Thanks 3dfx!).  Actually, the 3d quality
was a pleasant surprise, considering all the negative talk regarding
3dfx's 22bit appoach vs 32bit and the idea that the v3000 still
maintains the voodoo image curse!  Thankfully, that simply isn't the
case.  Of course, now I also have 2 free slots and a whole lot more
flexibility in terms of resolutions, api, and hardware (to boot)!

P.S.
My take on the whole 16vs32bit affair??   I've seen bigger image
quality differences comparing different brands of monitors on display
at the wiz.  This leads me to think, if it don't look good to
you...you should probably blame your monitor 1st!

Rufus

Even if every flight sim I had supported 32 bit color, I would run them in
16 bit to get the extra FPS. In a flight sim, smoothness is everything to
me, especially in a large furball. After playing games at 60fps, I want
speed, speed, and more speed!

-G

(Signature under permanent construction)

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

  Now, go back to reading your posts that you posted. Feel like
an Idiot?

PUTZ

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*** e.o.f. ***

Gonzo...here's something even better: free advice!....:)

Don't gamble that there *won't* be any 32-bit sims available to make you
feel good about not having any 32-bit 3d display capability. Instead of
*** like that, hedge your bets and buy a product that supports both
16-bits and 32-bits. Isn't that special?....:) Since you can do this without
spending any extra money, you'll come out a "winner."  Don't be a "weener"
and cripple yourself with a card containing hardware so old it doesn't know
what 32-bit 3d is!

(I'm so clever it scares me!...:))

Would you mind telling me what S3TC has to do with 4XAGP? What's important
to me about 4XAGP texturing is the near 1-gig/sec bandwidth it will be able
to use. I don't give a rat's liver about S3TC right now. I want 4XAGP merely
because of the raw bandwidth it will provide--that's *real* bandwidth. 4XAGP
will mark the first time the transfer bandwidth will be there for AGP to
make a noticeable difference. I want to buy a card that will support 4XAGP
so that I don't have to buy a brand new video card at the same time that I
replace my motherboard when the Camino chipset is released.

Fine, you can call it whatever you like. If you chose to call almost double
TNT1 performance a "placeholder" that's fine, as well as double the ram,
etc. That knocks you out of the V3 category as well...but that's fine with
me. To each his own...

Ummm....'cause maybe nVidia doesn't see it as a "risk?" Other than that, I
don't know--you'd have to ask them yourself.

My point was that 3dfx is already behind the "features" curve so much when
shipping products are compared--that if you think the TNT2 window is "small"
that would have to mean the V3 window is much smaller still.

That's a really interesting statement. 3dfx has not announced any product at
all with features that bring the Voodoo chipset up to even TNT1 standards.
Indeed, Gary Tarolli spends his time trying to convince people that 16-bits
is all they need. He doesn't *mention* any of the other features we've
discussed--and when pressed about it, reverts into spasmodic monologues that
concern the "workarounds" that can be done with the present Voodoo
architecture to "simulate" these features.

Are you operating in the realm of blind faith, here? You must be, because
that which is "quite obvious" to you is not obvious at all to me. It's
looking more and more like 3dfx has laid *all* its cards on the table this
year. For their sake, I certainly hope not. But nothing about 3dfx's
position is "obvious" to me at all, I'm afraid.

"Lots of people" still have 486's, don't they? But that doesn't alter the
fact that 486's, like Voodoo 1's, aren't being made anymore. What on earth
has the Voodoo 1 got to do with the *fact* that 3dfx has got to get out a
product with 32-bit color, a minimum of 32-megs of ram, a stencil buffer,
AGP texturing, and the like? I can't see that it has *anything* to do with
it. ANd 3dfx has no choice in the matter, either. The V3 is the V1
architecture--modified and improved. As a result, it is showing its age.
3dfx will need a lot more than the V3 to be a big player in the 3d market in
Y2k. That's guaranteed--you can smoke it and take it to the bank...:)

So that you don't misunderstand me--I'm NOT anti-3dfx. But the V3, compared
to the likes of the TNT2, does absolutely nothing for me at all. *IF* 3dfx
brings a *competitve* product to market there's a very good chance I'll buy
it--I enjoyed my V1 and V2 over the last few years--a LOT. But if all I've
got to look forward to is Gary Tarolli consistently insulting my
intelligence by asking me to believe things that I know ARE NOT SO and
evasively dodging questions--then forget it. I'm out of the 3dfx camp for
good.