rec.autos.simulators

by **ymenar** » Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:00:00

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Sad lost, but I was expecting such a thing after the website wasn't updated
for ages. Technically, all the market for people who want quality wheels
was reached. Why do you think Thrustmaster or other companies like this
offer cheap wheels only? Because you will buy them each 2 or so years, and
keep them in business.

Sorry for all who won't be able to buy one, I tried one once and it is
indeed a great wheel. You could still buy second-hand units ;)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **Scott B. Huste** » Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:00:00

My personal opinion only, but I couldn't see the market where I would buy a
$1,200+ ECCI wheel when you can have arguably just as good a wheel from TSW
for a few hundred bucks. Then again, I use an ACT LABS Force RS and RS
Shifter <VBG>

Scott
PA-Scott
PowerSims.com

by **AndyCer** » Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:00:00

> My personal opinion only, but I couldn't see the market where I would buy a
> $1,200+ ECCI wheel when you can have arguably just as good a wheel from TSW
> for a few hundred bucks. Then again, I use an ACT LABS Force RS and RS
> Shifter <VBG>

> Scott
> PA-Scott
> PowerSims.com

> > http://www.ecci.net/

> > Sad lost, but I was expecting such a thing after the website wasn't
> updated
> > for ages. Technically, all the market for people who want quality wheels
> > was reached. Why do you think Thrustmaster or other companies like this
> > offer cheap wheels only? Because you will buy them each 2 or so years, and
> > keep them in business.

> > Sorry for all who won't be able to buy one, I tried one once and it is
> > indeed a great wheel. You could still buy second-hand units ;)

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > -- http://www.WeRace.net
> > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> realise
> > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

This statement by Mr. Husted is just a symptom of why ECCI has chosen to
focus on the commercial market exclusively. "Just as good a wheel for a
few hundred bucks" is a ubiquitous statement promulgated by many who
have often received a free TSW product in return for an 'unbiased
review' and this kind of promotion. There are also strident, yet naive,
opinions expressed by those who haven't actually used both in
comparison. These should be considered as just that... naive.

It takes a substantial investment and minimum quantities to produce a
reasonably affordable quality product using the CAD/CAM design and
production techniques of the CDS line of products. Since the demise of
the NROS there has not been enough demand for a truly professional
quality product except for in the commercial arena. If conditions
regarding public sim-racing and its public profile improve, we may again
produce units for retail sale. In the meantime, we may over-run
commercial production from time to time to offer a few to the general
public.

Our commercial business has consistently grown despite offers by our
competitor of "free products" to our customers. Our commercial customers
have continued to buy our products for their consistent performance and
quality. Quality and performance cost what they cost. This is why we
have focused on this business. In this world where "a free lunch" seems
to be a common public belief, we will remain "old fashioned
quality-heads".

Andy Cers
ECCI

by **Lewi** » Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:00:00

I purchased one of their wheel about five years ago. It cost
around $500.00 and has really been worth every penny. I know by now I would
have spent more than that on other wheels. I have had a few springs bust
through the years and even though I request how much for the spring(s) and
shipping costs, they would always send the material free of charge. Heck,
shipping was usually $10.00. I know once I e-mailed them on a saturday
afternoon and received the requested items the next day on Sunday.

I hate to see them changing their ways but as well built as their
wheels are made, I have no doubt it can be rebuilt for ever. There are many
wheels out there with just as good a feel as the one I have and I knew it
when I bought it. I simply wanted something re-buildable.

by **Scott B. Huste** » Thu, 01 Jun 2000 04:00:00

AndyCers,

I resent your comments and your insinuations.

1) TSW has never given me a wheel
2) I do not own a TSW
2) I HAVE used both the TSW and ECCI for extended periods of time
3) I don't like the 1949 FORD TRACTOR PEDALS that are used on the ECCI for
$1,500 (MY OPINION)
4) I feel the TSW provides more comparable options for 1/2 to 1/3 the price
and at or near the same quality. (MY OPINION)

"My opinions."

As I stated, it was my opinion and my opinion is not bought or sold. Unlike
many sites and groups out there who cave into the manufacturer or developer
because they received the product, I state my opinion regardless. If TSW
had given me a wheel for free, why would I state that I use an ACT-LABS
FORCE RS and RS SHIFTER ????

Biased and naive was the post you just made.

--
Scott B. Husted
ICQ #4395450

Editor in Chief
PowerSims.com

> > My personal opinion only, but I couldn't see the market where I would
buy a
> > $1,200+ ECCI wheel when you can have arguably just as good a wheel from
TSW
> > for a few hundred bucks. Then again, I use an ACT LABS Force RS and RS
> > Shifter <VBG>

> > Scott
> > PA-Scott
> > PowerSims.com

> > > http://www.ecci.net/

> > > Sad lost, but I was expecting such a thing after the website wasn't
> > updated
> > > for ages. Technically, all the market for people who want quality
wheels
> > > was reached. Why do you think Thrustmaster or other companies like
this
> > > offer cheap wheels only? Because you will buy them each 2 or so years,
and
> > > keep them in business.

> > > Sorry for all who won't be able to buy one, I tried one once and it is
> > > indeed a great wheel. You could still buy second-hand units ;)

> > > --
> > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > -- http://www.WeRace.net
> > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
> > realise
> > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

> This statement by Mr. Husted is just a symptom of why ECCI has chosen to
> focus on the commercial market exclusively. "Just as good a wheel for a
> few hundred bucks" is a ubiquitous statement promulgated by many who
> have often received a free TSW product in return for an 'unbiased
> review' and this kind of promotion. There are also strident, yet naive,
> opinions expressed by those who haven't actually used both in
> comparison. These should be considered as just that... naive.

> It takes a substantial investment and minimum quantities to produce a
> reasonably affordable quality product using the CAD/CAM design and
> production techniques of the CDS line of products. Since the demise of
> the NROS there has not been enough demand for a truly professional
> quality product except for in the commercial arena. If conditions
> regarding public sim-racing and its public profile improve, we may again
> produce units for retail sale. In the meantime, we may over-run
> commercial production from time to time to offer a few to the general
> public.

> Our commercial business has consistently grown despite offers by our
> competitor of "free products" to our customers. Our commercial customers
> have continued to buy our products for their consistent performance and
> quality. Quality and performance cost what they cost. This is why we
> have focused on this business. In this world where "a free lunch" seems
> to be a common public belief, we will remain "old fashioned
> quality-heads".

> Andy Cers
> ECCI

by **PHendrix** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Somehow I think that TSW might eventually find themselves in the same boat
though. I own one, and I'm damn glad I do. But, they aren't something that
you're going to have to replace...probably at all. I buy upgrades for mine,
but I dont think they can survive on replacement pots and upgrades alone.
Geez, I hope I never have to read anything like this happening to TSW though.

by **Don Burnett** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Why slam TSW? I have never been impressed by competitors that talk bad about
their competition. Yes, I know ECCI is top quality and you get what you pay
for, no doubt. I have a TSW2 and have been extremely pleased with it, and
yes I have driven the ECCI wheel as well.

--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends
ICQ# 74084566

by **Todd Walk** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

It is unprofessional and downright rude to assume that just because
someone speaks positively of your competitors product, they must have
been compensated in some way for their positive comments. I, for one,
can't believe that you would insinuate such a thing having no
knowledge whatsoever of the circumstances of Mr. Husted's comments.

How incredibly generous of your company to consider doing the public a
favor and allowing us to buy your product from time to time. You guys
are really too kind...

I have absolutely NO respect for a company that will publicly defame
its competitors. If your product is truly superior to TSW's then you
shouldn't have to resort to those types of tactics. I am glad that I
have never given ECCI any of my money.

Todd Walker
twalker294 at earthlink.net

by **Tracey A Mille** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Has it occurred to you that many of those who might have been in the
market for a "quality" wheel may have moved on to force feedback
technology?

With the death of the NROS came NASCAR 3 and force feedback support.
There is no way I could go back to a wheel that is completely
disconnected from the car, regardless of the "quality", after having
used FF in GPL & N3.

In GPL the difference is even more pronounced. I'm using a $120
plastic toy because it is simply the best that I've tried, and I've
tried just about all of them. If you could produce a "quality" wheel
with the technology of this "toy", then price would become less of an
issue.

You are a mechanical wizard and the ECCI is the best in it's class,
but very few people are shopping in that class with a $1200 budget.

> > My personal opinion only, but I couldn't see the market where I
would buy a
> > $1,200+ ECCI wheel when you can have arguably just as good a wheel
from TSW
> > for a few hundred bucks. Then again, I use an ACT LABS Force RS
and RS
> > Shifter <VBG>

> > Scott
> > PA-Scott
> > PowerSims.com

> > > http://www.ecci.net/

> > > Sad lost, but I was expecting such a thing after the website
wasn't
> > updated
> > > for ages. Technically, all the market for people who want
quality wheels
> > > was reached. Why do you think Thrustmaster or other companies
like this
> > > offer cheap wheels only? Because you will buy them each 2 or so
years, and
> > > keep them in business.

> > > Sorry for all who won't be able to buy one, I tried one once and
it is
> > > indeed a great wheel. You could still buy second-hand units ;)

> > > --
> > > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > > -- May the Downforce be with you...
> > > -- http://www.WeRace.net
> > > -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they
don't
> > realise
> > > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

> This statement by Mr. Husted is just a symptom of why ECCI has
chosen to
> focus on the commercial market exclusively. "Just as good a wheel
for a
> few hundred bucks" is a ubiquitous statement promulgated by many who
> have often received a free TSW product in return for an 'unbiased
> review' and this kind of promotion. There are also strident, yet
naive,
> opinions expressed by those who haven't actually used both in
> comparison. These should be considered as just that... naive.

> It takes a substantial investment and minimum quantities to produce
a
> reasonably affordable quality product using the CAD/CAM design and
> production techniques of the CDS line of products. Since the demise
of
> the NROS there has not been enough demand for a truly professional
> quality product except for in the commercial arena. If conditions
> regarding public sim-racing and its public profile improve, we may
again
> produce units for retail sale. In the meantime, we may over-run
> commercial production from time to time to offer a few to the
general
> public.

> Our commercial business has consistently grown despite offers by our
> competitor of "free products" to our customers. Our commercial
customers
> have continued to buy our products for their consistent performance
and
> quality. Quality and performance cost what they cost. This is why we
> have focused on this business. In this world where "a free lunch"
seems
> to be a common public belief, we will remain "old fashioned
> quality-heads".

> Andy Cers
> ECCI

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Perhaps if you weren't bent on being old fashioned you would realize that
force feedback is here to stay and produce a wheel that meets a larger
market. Or, maybe you're just better at the mechanical stuff than the
electronics.

--

Slot
www.slottweak.com
Tweaks & Reviews

by **Joeri Co** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

I'm really sorry to hear this. As the proud owner of a Monza F1 myself, I
know how terrific there wheels are. But indeed, they'll never break so
replacement sales are probably very low.

A problem that arises now is that TSW loses most of its competition. The
only real competition TSW had was coming from ECCI. Now this competition is
gone, I hope TSW won't fall down towards the more mainstream wheels, which
would mean the end of high-end controllers as we know it.
---
Joeri J. Cox
J_Cox on N3 - ICQ# 60159253
Proud co-founder of 502 Racing

European Racing League - http://drive.to/erl

> > http://www.ecci.net/

> > Sad lost, but I was expecting such a thing after the website wasn't
> updated
> > for ages. Technically, all the market for people who want quality
wheels
> > was reached. Why do you think Thrustmaster or other companies like this
> > offer cheap wheels only? Because you will buy them each 2 or so years,
and
> > keep them in business.

> > Sorry for all who won't be able to buy one, I tried one once and it is
> > indeed a great wheel. You could still buy second-hand units ;)

by **Gary Wample** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Exactly what I've been thinking.
I have an Act-Labs RS, a TM Nascar Pro, and had another no-name wheel, and
they all have the same problem: over time they get sloppy because of
plastic parts. If' these companies would make versions of their products
replacing some of the plastic with metal: metal shafts with ball-bearings,
and positive metal-to-metal shaft to wheel connection, I think there would
be a lot of us who would gladly spend a few extra $.

Are there any wheels on the market now which do NOT use pots?

by **Kevin Gavit** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

">

The cogging of your wheel has little or nothing to do with the positions
that the motor can take. If you took the motor out and spun the shaft you
would notice that it can take damn near any position you want it to. It is
very smooth. (By the way, if you do this plan many hours of ***, sweat,
and yes, tears, before you get it back in again).

The problem is that your motor shaft is bent. This is fairly common on the
Chineese manufactured wheels. As the motor shaft turns the cable tightens,
and loosens, and tightens, and.... Hence the cogging.

The cogging isn't a flaw with FF, it's a manufacturing defect in your wheel.

by **GTX_SlotCa** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

Actually, there is at least one wheel that doesn't use pots. The problem
with optics is that, while they have higher reading resolution, they also
suffer from the jitters when used in a wheel. By the time you calm them, the
resolution is less than that of a high quality pot. Cleaning the pots
sometimes helps, but the problem is that they're so hard to get at that we
don't do it until damage is done. What I'd really like to see is easy access
to clean them so it could be done on a monthly (or so) basis. With regular
maintenance, they should theoretically last a very long time.
The market is ready for a high quality, mass merchandised FF wheel. Somebody
will step up with it. Maybe Logi or TM or someone else, and it will be
available at Best Buy or EB, not just through the manufacturer's web site.
It must be mass merchandised (unlike ECCI) and it makes sense for someone to
make it. Having a product in your line up that is considered the best
available is good marketing sense because it helps to sell your other
products by reputation. If I was into flight sims, I'd certainly consider a
TSW flight stick (with FF, of course).
Finally, as for ECCI, it's not enough just to have the best product. It has
to also be a good value. Yes, some people will pay any price for the best,
and I'm sure ECCI wheel owners are very happy with their purchase. But if
you want to sell a lot of units (and that's the point, isn't it) and your
product is 10% better than the number 2 unit, your price better reflect
this. Value, or perceived value, availability, and product awareness are key
issues. We in this news group and not typical computer consumers anymore.
Picture a guy with a good income driving up to Best Buy in his new BMW. He
buys a *** computer that the salesman tells him is good, the fastest
thing available. He picks out NFS:PU and then decides on a MSFF or LWFF
wheel because that's what they stock. He's never heard of ECCI, yet he has
plenty of money to spend.

--
Slot

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

by **Eldre** » Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:00:00

>> > My personal opinion only, but I couldn't see the market where I would
>buy a
>> > $1,200+ ECCI wheel when you can have arguably just as good a wheel from
>TSW
>> > for a few hundred bucks. Then again, I use an ACT LABS Force RS and RS
>> > Shifter <VBG>

>> > Scott
>> > PA-Scott
>> > PowerSims.com

[snip]

- Show quoted text -

Ok, I admit I missed the first part of this discussion. However, Andy seems to
have an attitude towards certain consumers. Some people won't buy the ECCI
products simply because of the price. $1500?!? I didn't pay that much for my
first CAR... Others might want quality products, but don't feel the need for a
$1500 device. I finally paid $350 or so for a TSW. I didn't have any way to
test an ECCI. I don't know anyone locally who has one. Even so, there's no
*way* I'm going to spend $1500 on a computer wheel. I don't care if if came
from Ferrari themselves. It seems that Mr. Cers doesn't feel the need to
listen to consumers who don't want to (or can't) spend that much money. Not
good business PR, in my opinion.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

rec.autos.simulators

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers

ECCI will stop making wheels for individual customers