rec.autos.simulators

GPL with a joystick

itazur

GPL with a joystick

by itazur » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:35:39

Before I get myself too much more frustrated being outdriven by the AI in
GPL, I thought I'd try to locate an excuse.  Can someone offer me a handy
rationalization for why I'm so slow by telling me that I can't possibly
drive fast with a joystick and must immediately go out and spend hundreds of
dollars on a high-tech wheel and pedals?

I am curious to know what controllers GPL veterans have chosen; I'm new to
GPL and have been making steady progress driving with my joystick, but I
seem to have reached a point where I can't squeeze out too much more, and
I'm still being out-braked and generally out-driven by the AI.  The braking
seems to be most obvious weak point.

Yes, I realize that the more likely explanation for why I am slow is, well,
that I am just slow....but humor me :-)    Anyone successfully driving with
a joystick?  Any reasons I should consider other controllers?

Thanks,
itazura

chainbreake

GPL with a joystick

by chainbreake » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:41:52

Actually, in the period of time right after GPL's release, practically all
the fastest times were posted by folks using joysticks rather than wheels.
The wheel users for the most part, weren't even in the ballpark.  I dunno if
that's still the case or not, but the short answer to your question is that
lots of people have had great success using joysticks.  I can't believe
using one does much for the immersion factor, though.

Jerry Morelock

Racecraf

GPL with a joystick

by Racecraf » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 01:44:43


>Before I get myself too much more frustrated being outdriven by the AI in
>GPL, I thought I'd try to locate an excuse.  Can someone offer me a handy
>rationalization for why I'm so slow by telling me that I can't possibly
>drive fast with a joystick and must immediately go out and spend hundreds
of
>dollars on a high-tech wheel and pedals?

>I am curious to know what controllers GPL veterans have chosen; I'm new to
>GPL and have been making steady progress driving with my joystick, but I
>seem to have reached a point where I can't squeeze out too much more, and
>I'm still being out-braked and generally out-driven by the AI.  The braking
>seems to be most obvious weak point.

>Yes, I realize that the more likely explanation for why I am slow is, well,
>that I am just slow....but humor me :-)    Anyone successfully driving with
>a joystick?  Any reasons I should consider other controllers?

>Thanks,
>itazura

I believe the ultimate fastest laptimes come from a Joystick / Pedals combo.
I guess you can just be more sensitive with the joystick and react faster.
(see Wolfgang Woeger :)

If you don't want to spend money on a wheel and pedals, you may prefer just
picking up pedals and using them along side your joystick. I belive the CH
Flight Pedals are good for that.

Rob - who happily uses his MSFF Wheel & Pedals ;)
GPLRank: -90.45

Haqsa

GPL with a joystick

by Haqsa » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 02:13:14

You do not have as much precision with a joystick as you would with a
wheel.  I just moved from a joystick to a wheel myself, and while it has
been difficult to adapt, after about a week of practice I started
getting faster lap times with the wheel.  Mind you this was in N4, not
GPL, since I don't have GPL.  The wheel not only gives you more
precision due to its larger range of motion, but at least in my case it
also resulted in more electrical precision, i.e. the Logitech wheel I
use now has 4 times the range, in counts, as the proportional sticks on
the Logitech Rumblepad I was using before.  That makes it much easier to
keep the car on the right line, and also makes driving in traffic a lot
easier.  About the only thing that is easier with a joystick is
recovering from a spin, where the ability to go lock-to-lock quickly
with the joystick is helpful.

OTOH from the time I spent trying to use a joystick, I think what I saw
as the biggest problem is you absolutely have to have both throttle and
brakes on a proportional axis.  If you are using buttons for either of
these functions, then that is your real problem.  Try splitting the Y
axis and using that for throttle and brakes, or try to split the
throttle slider if your stick has one.  The nice thing about the
Rumblepad was that it had twin proportional sticks, which allowed me to
put steering on one and throttle and brakes on the other, so that I keep
the two independent from one another.


Alex Camero

GPL with a joystick

by Alex Camero » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:04:23



> >Before I get myself too much more frustrated being outdriven by the AI in
> >GPL, I thought I'd try to locate an excuse.  Can someone offer me a handy
> >rationalization for why I'm so slow by telling me that I can't possibly
> >drive fast with a joystick and must immediately go out and spend hundreds
> of
> >dollars on a high-tech wheel and pedals?

> >I am curious to know what controllers GPL veterans have chosen; I'm new
to
> >GPL and have been making steady progress driving with my joystick, but I
> >seem to have reached a point where I can't squeeze out too much more, and
> >I'm still being out-braked and generally out-driven by the AI.  The
braking
> >seems to be most obvious weak point.

> >Yes, I realize that the more likely explanation for why I am slow is,
well,
> >that I am just slow....but humor me :-)    Anyone successfully driving
with
> >a joystick?  Any reasons I should consider other controllers?

> >Thanks,
> >itazura

> I believe the ultimate fastest laptimes come from a Joystick / Pedals
combo.
> I guess you can just be more sensitive with the joystick and react faster.
> (see Wolfgang Woeger :)

> If you don't want to spend money on a wheel and pedals, you may prefer
just
> picking up pedals and using them along side your joystick. I belive the CH
> Flight Pedals are good for that.

> Rob - who happily uses his MSFF Wheel & Pedals ;)
> GPLRank: -90.45

Wolfgang Woeger didn't even use the pedals he used the joystick for
everything, he's switched to a wheel now I think.

Also some of the very fast guys like Rick Pryden use hand levers on their
wheels instead of pedals, using your hands is always going to give you a
slight advantage because your hand's reactions are allot quicker than your
feet's, I'm surprised no one has tried it in real life F1 or especially drag
racing.

Alex

Jim Seamu

GPL with a joystick

by Jim Seamu » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:31:03


<snip>

Coo that's a nice GPLRank Rob, well done mate! :0)

Jim

Rob Swindell

GPL with a joystick

by Rob Swindell » Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:37:21




> <snip>

> > Rob - who happily uses his MSFF Wheel & Pedals ;)
> > GPLRank: -90.45

> Coo that's a nice GPLRank Rob, well done mate! :0)

> Jim

hehe, just wondering if anyone would notice :)

--
Rob Swindells
/////////////
Caps
Lock

Peter Ive

GPL with a joystick

by Peter Ive » Sat, 07 Jul 2001 04:14:12




>com>...
>>Before I get myself too much more frustrated being outdriven by the AI in
>>GPL, I thought I'd try to locate an excuse.  Can someone offer me a handy
>>rationalization for why I'm so slow by telling me that I can't possibly
>>drive fast with a joystick and must immediately go out and spend hundreds
>of
>>dollars on a high-tech wheel and pedals?

>>I am curious to know what controllers GPL veterans have chosen; I'm new
>to
>>GPL and have been making steady progress driving with my joystick, but I
>>seem to have reached a point where I can't squeeze out too much more,
>and
>>I'm still being out-braked and generally out-driven by the AI.  The braking
>>seems to be most obvious weak point.

>>Yes, I realize that the more likely explanation for why I am slow is, well,
>>that I am just slow....but humor me :-)    Anyone successfully driving with
>>a joystick?  Any reasons I should consider other controllers?

>>Thanks,
>>itazura

>I believe the ultimate fastest laptimes come from a Joystick / Pedals combo.
>I guess you can just be more sensitive with the joystick and react faster.
>(see Wolfgang Woeger :)

Don't know about the joystick/pedal combo but  the other statement is
definitely true.  One of the advantages over my wheel/pedal driving was
that I could change the steering direction extremely quickly (lock to
lock or any other permutation) in order to keep the car where I wanted
it.  Also, someone here said you could be more precise with a wheel.  I
disagree with that.  At my peak with a joystick I could put the car on
the money even at full tilt without any difficulty whatsoever, much
easier than I am finding using a wheel.  I may well because as
proficient with a wheel over time, but I doubt I could be any better at
it.

There's lots more I would like to add, such as recommended settings,
joystick used etc and I probably will at a later time, but unfortunately
this is just a quick post for now as time is short.

PS:  my GPLrank for joystick is in my sig below.  :)

Blimey Rob -90.45!!!  Is that correct?  :)
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06

itazur

GPL with a joystick

by itazur » Sat, 07 Jul 2001 08:07:37

thanks for the input all...

the consensus seems to be that I need to keep the joystick and just practice
:-)

itazura
feeble GPL rank: +100 or so


Haqsa

GPL with a joystick

by Haqsa » Sat, 07 Jul 2001 08:51:44


Part of that is a personal thing; I am just not coordinated enough to
use a joystick precisely, whereas my 17 year old son doesn't seem to
have any problem with it.  Chalk it up to Old Fart's Disease.  But the
other reason I said that is that when I look at the counts displayed on
the wheel axis in the N4 calibration routine (which I believe is similar
to GPL's), the range for two different wheels I tried was around a
thousand (1 to 1024 for a TM Ferrari, about 40 to 960 or so for a
Logitech).  When I compared that with the sticks on my Rumblepad
(possibly not a good example) the axes only had a range of 256 counts.
IF that's typical, that means you can literally be four times as precise
with a wheel as you can with a joystick, regardless of how coordinated
you are (whether that makes a difference in the game or not I don't
know).  But maybe that's not typical.  Out of curiosity, when you go
into the GPL joystick calibration routine, what range do you see on the
Y axis?  Also, what kind of stick do you have?  Maybe I just need a
better joystick.  Bah, it wouldn't help, the Old Fart's Disease would
still be a problem.  ;o)

Regards,
Hal

Peter Ive

GPL with a joystick

by Peter Ive » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 04:00:17




>message

>> Also, someone here said you could be more precise with a wheel.  I
>> disagree with that.  At my peak with a joystick I could put the car on
>> the money even at full tilt without any difficulty whatsoever, much
>> easier than I am finding using a wheel.

>Part of that is a personal thing; I am just not coordinated enough to
>use a joystick precisely, whereas my 17 year old son doesn't seem to
>have any problem with it.  Chalk it up to Old Fart's Disease.  But the
>other reason I said that is that when I look at the counts displayed on
>the wheel axis in the N4 calibration routine (which I believe is similar
>to GPL's), the range for two different wheels I tried was around a
>thousand (1 to 1024 for a TM Ferrari, about 40 to 960 or so for a
>Logitech).  When I compared that with the sticks on my Rumblepad
>(possibly not a good example) the axes only had a range of 256 counts.
>IF that's typical, that means you can literally be four times as precise
>with a wheel as you can with a joystick, regardless of how coordinated
>you are (whether that makes a difference in the game or not I don't
>know).  But maybe that's not typical.  Out of curiosity, when you go
>into the GPL joystick calibration routine, what range do you see on the
>Y axis?  Also, what kind of stick do you have?  Maybe I just need a
>better joystick.  Bah, it wouldn't help, the Old Fart's Disease would
>still be a problem.  ;o)

>Regards,
>Hal

Now using a wheel so I can't check those settings anymore.  However, I'm
pretty sure 0 to 256 was its range.  Also you really have to feel
comfortable with the joystick that you use and I'd hate to try GPL with
that rumblepad. :)

Anyway, after I finally settled for a Saitek Cyborg 3D which was the 3rd
or 4th joystick I tried, when I had to go back to using one of my
previous sticks I just couldn't believe that I had been able to drive as
fast as I had with it, it just seemed so cumbersome.  Unfortunately for
the Cyborg, and one of the reasons that pushed me towards using a wheel,
they just never lasted more than 3 months before they would start
spiking - despite any sort of cleaning attempts - which was proving far
too expensive in the long term.

BTW, I'm no Young Fart ya know.  40 and proud of it.  :)
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06

Haqsa

GPL with a joystick

by Haqsa » Sun, 08 Jul 2001 06:58:10





> >message

> Now using a wheel so I can't check those settings anymore.  However,
I'm
> pretty sure 0 to 256 was its range.  Also you really have to feel
> comfortable with the joystick that you use and I'd hate to try GPL
with
> that rumblepad. :)

It does take some getting used to.  And honestly I wasn't much better
with my previous stick.  I have an old Sidewinder joystick, but it
doesn't work properly on my current computer.  Apparently this is a
known problem with the original Sidewinder (gameport only) joysticks,
they don't detect reliably above about 500 mhz or so.  I can run it in
analog mode, but the calibration seems to drift when I do that, plus I
lose the base buttons.  I got the Rumblepad to replace that, and it
actually is not bad in most of the games I have used it.  The light
tension makes it easier to control than it might appear.

Are those gameport joysticks?  From what I've seen so far, USB devices
seem to be pretty noise free.

Hehe, I've still got a couple years on you young man!

Regards,
Hal Raymond
GPL rank DNF

Peter Ive

GPL with a joystick

by Peter Ive » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:32:59



<snip>

Yep, gameport ones, mainly because of using win95 at the time which has
pretty flakey USB support.  Now using win98SE so my wheel is USB though.
:)

Hehe, I'm off down the pub for a bottle of stout and a game of draughts.
Interested?  :)

--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06

Haqsa

GPL with a joystick

by Haqsa » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:09:22


Uh-oh, translation required.  Over here in the States we drink draughts
(or rather drafts).  So if you're talking about a drinking game, I'm in!
But I'm sure that's not what you meant.  I do like a pint of Guiness
occasionally, but rumor has it you guys drink it warm.  I prefer cold
brews and warm women, not the other way around.  ;o)

Cheers,
Hal

Peter Ive

GPL with a joystick

by Peter Ive » Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:55:53




>message

>> Hehe, I'm off down the pub for a bottle of stout and a game of
>draughts.
>> Interested?  :)

>Uh-oh, translation required.  Over here in the States we drink draughts
>(or rather drafts).  So if you're talking about a drinking game, I'm in!
>But I'm sure that's not what you meant.  I do like a pint of Guiness
>occasionally, but rumor has it you guys drink it warm.  I prefer cold
>brews and warm women, not the other way around.  ;o)

>Cheers,
>Hal

I had a funny feeling this might need explaining.  Common stereotype of
old geezer is someone who drinks bottles of stout - kinda Guiness like
in that it's dark coloured - and who plays a game called draughts in the
local boozer.  Bits of wood (known as tiles perhaps) with a line down
the middle of each and a certain amount of dots on each side of the
line.  Number of dots goes from 0 up to 6 and no 2 tiles are the same.
Anyway, its all about getting rid of your tiles by laying them end to
end with those already on the table, but you can only do so if the
number on the tile at either end of those laid matches the number of any
of the tiles you have in your possession.  If you can't go you pick up
from a pool of tiles not yet used.  Blah, blah, blah, winner is one who
gets rid of all his tiles first.  Adrenalin pumping stuff.  That's why
the stout is drunk, as it is an analgesic to stop those playing from
getting too hyper whilst playing, because aggressive players don't just
place their tiles, but thump them down in an intimidating manner in
order to psyche out their opponent.  In fact it is well documented here
in the UK that many a street riot has been started by an inoccuous game
of draughts getting out of hand amongst old folk and there are moves
amongst government circles to have the whole game banned completely.
Worries are that this may well drive the game underground making it much
more difficult to police and possibly resulting in the draughts players
moving onto much more harder pub games such as gribbage which is a Class
A pub game, and anyone found in possession of a Cribbage board is liable
to a long period of incarceration.  Mind you, that's another story.

Current draughts champion is Johnny 'Old Boy' Mcfee, who gained the
coveted title by default after the current champion Mick 'A Little
Shakey' Graham fell asleep in front of the tv and missed the match.

Hope that has explained things more clearly.  :)
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -17.06


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