rec.autos.simulators

by **David Powel** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:07:05

I didnt have a pop...

I just talked frankly....sorry if thats a problem for you....

As for reallife having met a number of the top20 guys....

Gabor Weber is certainly proving that the Top GPLers can also drive in RL...

As a motoring jounrnalist in hungary he was invited to race in there nation
touring championship, as a total novice I believe has finished his first
race second and has been having great success, also been invited to drive an
F1 car for an article as well as having been gifted an all expenses paid
drive in there porsche cup series. Gabor was also very good in some karts we
raced as that LAN events in holland. Gabor is an example of the type of
person that plays GPL at the top level. Not all would be this way but i'd
say he counts for the greater %. Then professional racers like Kevin Firlien
also top20, US FA national champion etc.

I do agree about the balls thing, but I would add that having the will to
push yourself hard enough to get to these guys position in GPL is usually
indicative of the fact they have *that* mindset....

Ive raced Mark Webber in Go-Karts and qualified only 0.4slower after a 20min
session and finished a mear 10secs behind after 40laps....he wasnt***
about and complemented me after...

For my experience of a few of the top guys id say they make fine racing
drivers...but I do agree that balls is a large factor, but thesedays not
that much to honest, in the old days it was scary, but doing 130mph in
modern racer or road car on the track really isnt that fearsome is it, doing
130mph in a 60's bake bean can full of fuel is a different story, but in
todays motorsport its often the interlectual prost style driver that excels
thesedays rather than the machotype that was needed when fear was the object
to going fast, now the main object is fitness and application after having
the talent in the first place..

David

> > I dont know why i feel i have to defend those around me but,
discrediting
> > the list of names ive spent my entire GPL time with as a hotlapper and
racer
> > cause they have a good rank MAKES ME F***ING EVILLY MAD!!!!! GRRR

> Well you did rather bring it on yourself by having a pop at Eldred by
failing to
> understand why he couldn't go negative.

> I have no doubt you are a great racer and hotlapper. Buried deep below in
this
> thread before it became a hotlapper vs racer slanging match I suggested
this was
> due to ability rather then competitive spirit, determination and sheer
effort
> which seemed to be the inference.

> The debate as to whether a great simmer relates to a great RL driver will
go on
> no doubt! Yet as far as balls or bottle are concerned I doubt they are a
factor
> in a gplrank rating.

> Tony

by **jason moy** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:08:54

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:31:16 +0100, Gerry Aitken

>You've got all your wires (and feet) crossed there. Do a search on heel
>& toe, there are lots of sites which cover this technique.

Hm. I don't have a clutch pedal, but I always assumed that heel/toe
was when you used your left foot on the clutch/brake and your right on
the gas. I'll go read about it I guess.

Jason

-----
GPLRank 24.50
N2002Rank -12.995

by **jason moy** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:11:50

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:51:10 +0100, Gerry Aitken

>Not 100% sure, but I think such thing are banned by FIA, along with
>joysticks and the driver laying on his back and looking at a screen.
>You'd be amazed at what technologies the teams have entertained!

Hm, I'll have to check the pdf I have with the official formula. I'm
pretty sure hand-operated throttle/brake are legal, tho I'm not sure
about joysticks (I'd imagine it depends on the electronics required to
implement one). The reason AFAIK that hand-operated gas/brake aren't
used in F1 cars is because it would severely limit the travel
available. Hell, Schumacher stalled on the grid more than once in his
career when he was young because he was having trouble with the short
travel on the hand-operated clutch.

Jason

-----
GPLRank 24.50
N2002Rank -12.995

by **jason moy** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:17:54

>On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:31:16 +0100, Gerry Aitken

>>You've got all your wires (and feet) crossed there. Do a search on heel
>>& toe, there are lots of sites which cover this technique.

>Hm. I don't have a clutch pedal, but I always assumed that heel/toe
>was when you used your left foot on the clutch/brake and your right on
>the gas. I'll go read about it I guess.

Alrighty I am now a virtual officiando of heel brake/technique thanks
to the wonders of the world wide web. Thanks for cluing me on my
cluelessness.

Jason

-----
GPLRank 24.50
N2002Rank -12.995

by **David Powel** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:20:34

rubbish! most of the top GPLers were prolly negative within a few months, i
was -50 when i came online after 6months of not huge ammounts of offline
driving.

As with everyone else at the top we are just faster naturally......I bet my
first laps around a track in GPL were faster than 98% of everyone elses as
with all the other top guys, the time scale argument old as it is gerry
means little..
We were racing better than you and most GPLers in 99 and early 2000 when my
laps would have been very low on the game....

As for millions of laps all ive driven in one year is about 10league races
and 2x 2week hotlapping stints....I've only done 20laps in 2months
lately....

I hardly drive GPL gerry...I have alot in the past when I was slow...

It pisses people off on VROC that I never seem to drive yet i go like a
rocket...

Andreas Wilke and Cotchin will vouch for this :)

I would carry on but i think i hurt your feelings last time :)

Ill add my post about my RL experiences and those of top GPLers racing and
well see how you react to a small numbers of those in the top20s experiences
of chances given to them in RL.

""Gabor Weber is certainly proving that the Top GPLers can also drive in
RL...

As a motoring jounrnalist in hungary he was invited to race in there nation
touring championship, as a total novice I believe has finished his first
race second and has been having great success, also been invited to drive an
F1 car for an article as well as having been gifted an all expenses paid
drive in there porsche cup series. Gabor was also very good in some karts we
raced as that LAN events in holland. Gabor is an example of the type of
person that plays GPL at the top level. Not all would be this way but i'd
say he counts for the greater %. Then professional racers like Kevin Firlien
also top20, US FA national champion etc.

I do agree about the balls thing, but I would add that having the will to
push yourself hard enough to get to these guys position in GPL is usually
indicative of the fact they have *that* mindset....

Ive raced Mark Webber in Go-Karts and qualified only 0.4slower after a 20min
session and finished a mear 10secs behind after 40laps....he wasnt***
about and complemented me after...""

Enough trying to put the fast drivers down here, and finding ways to make
yourselves think there not gonna be better in RL, better in a RL sim, cause
they are, there always gonna be better, learn quicker, be faster.....

> > Its a matter of fact...."I" know it to be so....f

> <SNIP>

> Yeah, like I know it to be so that you are only fast because you grind
> out lap after lap for hour after hour, days, months, years... totally
> unrealistic practice regime, imo. The huge speed difference between you
> elite guys in gpl and the ordinary ones, like me, just wouldn't exit in
> real life, imo. Being ultra fast in GPL is more about having a high
> boredom threshold than anything else, imo.

> There's a huge difference between a talented driver in real life and
> some bloke who plays a game in his bedroom for hours and hours, imo.

> Not that I care how you waste your life, or that you feel you need to
> crow about being fast at gpl to give your life meaning.

> The real tragedy is the loopholes in GPL that you lot exploit. I
> wouldn't call it cheating, just cheating yourself.

> JMHO

> Gerry

by **Carl Ribbegaard** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:20:13

LOL.
I cannot ever make it through the lefthander before the hairpin at Rouen
withouth pressing both pedals... I'm a 117 rank guy, so it's not an
alien-hotlapping thing.
Racing 1 clean lap for every 10'th is also a situation that I can relate
to... It happens me all the time, especially when I race :-)

/Carl

> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:45:39 +0100, "David Powell"

<snip>
> I dunno, my goals with any racing simulation are to have fun and to
> experience what a real driver does to the extent that is possible in
> front of a computer. I've never found hotlapping to be helpful with
> either of those two goals. Racing 1 clean lap for every 10 in order
> to find a limit just isn't appealing, and running setups that sit on
> the bump stops for an entire lap while using the brake and gas
> simultaneously in every corner doesn't help with the realism aspect.

> Jason

> -----
> GPLRank 24.50
> N2002Rank -12.995

by **David Powel** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:22:35

they made a hand steering and throttle/brake device for schumacher in 99
after the leg break, in an attempt to get him racing, im sure if illegal
ferrari wouldnt have bothered? im not sure on this...

> On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:51:10 +0100, Gerry Aitken

> >Not 100% sure, but I think such thing are banned by FIA, along with
> >joysticks and the driver laying on his back and looking at a screen.
> >You'd be amazed at what technologies the teams have entertained!

> Hm, I'll have to check the pdf I have with the official formula. I'm
> pretty sure hand-operated throttle/brake are legal, tho I'm not sure
> about joysticks (I'd imagine it depends on the electronics required to
> implement one). The reason AFAIK that hand-operated gas/brake aren't
> used in F1 cars is because it would severely limit the travel
> available. Hell, Schumacher stalled on the grid more than once in his
> career when he was young because he was having trouble with the short
> travel on the hand-operated clutch.

> Jason

> -----
> GPLRank 24.50
> N2002Rank -12.995

by **Gerry Aitke** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:24:47

<SNIP>

And the loopholes? You cheat. ;)

by **David Powel** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:28:28

The reason AFAIK that hand-operated gas/brake aren't

Doubt this, as theres only about 100degrees each way anyway, with paddles
behind the wheel you just squeeze, works on the GP1 or TM1 PC wheel would be
fine in a F1 car...its all electronic fly by wire anyway, so theres no
cables/hydraulics!

> they made a hand steering and throttle/brake device for schumacher in 99
> after the leg break, in an attempt to get him racing, im sure if illegal
> ferrari wouldnt have bothered? im not sure on this...

> > On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:51:10 +0100, Gerry Aitken

> > >Not 100% sure, but I think such thing are banned by FIA, along with
> > >joysticks and the driver laying on his back and looking at a screen.
> > >You'd be amazed at what technologies the teams have entertained!

> > Hm, I'll have to check the pdf I have with the official formula. I'm
> > pretty sure hand-operated throttle/brake are legal, tho I'm not sure
> > about joysticks (I'd imagine it depends on the electronics required to
> > implement one). The reason AFAIK that hand-operated gas/brake aren't
> > used in F1 cars is because it would severely limit the travel
> > available. Hell, Schumacher stalled on the grid more than once in his
> > career when he was young because he was having trouble with the short
> > travel on the hand-operated clutch.

> > Jason

> > -----
> > GPLRank 24.50
> > N2002Rank -12.995

by **Joachim Trens** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 02:34:11

That's an interesting detail I wasn't aware off.

I always thought that when the engine, the transmission, the differential
and the driven wheels are behind the driver, it's unlikely that a drive
shaft would pass in between the driver's feet or pedals?

Achim

> On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:26:01 +0100, "David Powell"

> >Im sure the more realistic things get ie heel and toe, double be clutch,
> >normal braking etc will only make the more talented even faster than the
> >average man.

> I dunno how you'd heel and toe in a GPL era car since the brake and
> clutch were separated by the driveshaft. I believe Harry Cooper
> actually verified this in an interview somewhere...the gas and brake
> were on the right side of the***pit, the clutch on the left, and the
> driveshaft meant that you couldn't left-foot brake or heel and toe.

> Jason

> -----
> GPLRank 24.50
> N2002Rank -12.995

by **David Powel** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:31:50

cheat what? GPL is offered as is, hense its taken to the limit as is....I
use throttle with braking as I need to keep up with those ahead....there the
***y cheats <G> Im just a sheep following :)....

> <SNIP>

> And the loopholes? You cheat. ;)

by **Gerry Aitke** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:31:01

> That's an interesting detail I wasn't aware off.

> I always thought that when the engine, the transmission, the differential
> and the driven wheels are behind the driver, it's unlikely that a drive
> shaft would pass in between the driver's feet or pedals?

He means steering column. And I know you know he did. ;)

Gerry

by **David Powel** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:35:11

the Cooper was probably the last of the Front engine cars......if talking to
John Cooper it was probably mid 50's GP car...Even this i would think it
unlikely that it was the propshaft....as the gearbox would be just starting
down there and the shaft not starting will under the drivers seat.....

It was probably a steering column....as i think abut 80% of GP cars had
steering columns between clutch and brake....

> That's an interesting detail I wasn't aware off.

> I always thought that when the engine, the transmission, the differential
> and the driven wheels are behind the driver, it's unlikely that a drive
> shaft would pass in between the driver's feet or pedals?

> Achim

> > On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:26:01 +0100, "David Powell"

> > >Im sure the more realistic things get ie heel and toe, double be
clutch,
> > >normal braking etc will only make the more talented even faster than
the
> > >average man.

> > I dunno how you'd heel and toe in a GPL era car since the brake and
> > clutch were separated by the driveshaft. I believe Harry Cooper
> > actually verified this in an interview somewhere...the gas and brake
> > were on the right side of the***pit, the clutch on the left, and the
> > driveshaft meant that you couldn't left-foot brake or heel and toe.

> > Jason

> > -----
> > GPLRank 24.50
> > N2002Rank -12.995

by **Gerry Aitke** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:34:20

> cheat what? GPL is offered as is, hense its taken to the limit as is....I
> use throttle with braking as I need to keep up with those ahead....there the
> ***y cheats <G> Im just a sheep following :)....

Well I refuse to drive in such a lame manner. But that's not to say I
haven't tried this *** technique. I was loads faster with it of course,
but I'll stick to actlabs shifter and heel & toe, thank_you_very_much.

by **jason moy** » Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:37:00

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:34:11 -0000, "Joachim Trensz"

>That's an interesting detail I wasn't aware off.

>I always thought that when the engine, the transmission, the differential
>and the driven wheels are behind the driver, it's unlikely that a drive
>shaft would pass in between the driver's feet or pedals?

Oof. I believe what I meant was "steering shaft". The interview with
John Cooper where he mentions this is here:

http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/Thurston.html

Jason

-----
GPLRank 24.50
N2002Rank -12.995

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