rec.autos.simulators

First, he never tried the patched version.  There was no time.
Secondly, it would be very difficult to make the patched version
behave like the unpatched version.  The grip models are just so
different.

Randy Magruder
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Where did he do that?

Randy
Randy Magruder
http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Still it will be an awesome sim. I dont think you'll want to pass it up. I
hope that CART 2000 (ICR3) considering they might use the same engine as GPL
you could use the tracks off GPL with CART 2000 like now with ICR2 and
Nascar1/2. Now how would you like to drive Monaco or Nurburgring in a CART
Champ Car? And whats there to hold us over til CART 2000? I cant wait 1 1/2
years or more without a really good sim. Thats were GPL comes in. Oh and the
biggest attraction to it I think is that Papyrus made the most realistic sim
they could make not the time period of 67. If its a great racing sim who
cares what era it covers. I wouldnt mind it being ICR3 coming out now
instead of GPL. But we all know the CART tracks by heart. Learning some new
cool tracks will be a blast. And I like a company like Papy being original,
gotta give them credit to pull off something like GPL.

Arthur
s t e a l t h
r a c i n g
http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

I've no problem continuing any discussion that is going somewhere, but
I'm no longer so indulgent with my time where pointless posturing is
concerned. A waste of time serving only to clutter the group.

Sorry if that disappointed you and you were looking forward to the
verbal equivalent of the Queensbury rules. This thread of CPR v's
every other sim certainly has that potential, and I'm sure it will
soon develop into an argument of some kind or other. :-)

Cheers!
John

I have said over and over that I'm sure I'll like GPL. And I don't even have
an illegal copy of it to go by. Do you have a copy? Legal or otherwise?

Dave
DmndDave

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:22:10 -0400, "David G Fisher"

Generally that is the case. Some of the people involved in the design
stage do however, and even if they don't the information is available
if they go and look.

One of the problems is that simulating a car is an _enormously_
difficult thing to do properly, since although we all know what it is
like, we probably don't appreciate how inter-related everything is. If
you fail to model one aspect of the car then it will fail to react as
expected in certain situations, prompting allegations of being
unrealistic. Consider for example how many different things there are
which can cause a car to understeer, and then how many ways there are
to correct that. Then too there is torque steer, effects of kingpin
inclination, camber and movement thereof in a corner etc etc etc. I
have watched the development of several of the sims we enjoy (or
otherwise!) here, and have seen the inevitable compromises involved in
trying to simulate how a car does what it does. Each developer
compromises something depending upon what they believe their market
will expect, what they believe they can "fudge" to get something
believable, and what they believe is important (or even know about).
That means every sim is unrealistic to some extent, just in a
different way. I'm sure in every sim we can find something accurate
and inaccurate, and select whichever we want to demonstrate that the
sim is good or bad, depending upon standpoint.

GPL I would somewhat set apart from the the sims I have seen the
development of since I truly am in awe at the amount of detail Dave
and the team have crammed into the car model, whereas in other
projects I have seen a (perfectly justifiable) fudge was implemented
instead. That said, I don't expect that to add anything to the debate
since it is easy to discount as bias and is the sort of thing people
need to see for themselves to really believe. As long as everyone has
fun with the sim of their choice I don't see that it really matters.

Cheers!
John

   I'll take your word for it since my spell checker sees nothing wrong with either
version :) Still, the sentence may be a little rough around the edges but it is still
functional (sp)! :)

   Funny thing is that if the CART license was not wasted on CPR that GPL may well have
been ICR3!

Art, David is well known for propping up CPR to ridiculous heights and to the point of
misleading people about it's true lack of finish. I find this offensive and detremental to
the quality and reputation of this NG. Anything that generally shows MS in a positive
light reguarding CPR is misleading IMO. As time goes on and more people join the Internet,
this NG becomes increasingly powerful in determining the sales of sim racing titles. So my
attitude is "Give the bastards hell!" :) I'm sure you must have felt this way when you
were leading that league race only to be killed by the "I love the pit wall" bug.
   As I've said elsewhere, David seems to thrive on stirring this stuff up. It's so
obvious that he's either on MS's payroll or is at least crawling to them for future beta
testing rights that it makes me sick. At the end of the day, if you let people be
misleading here then the NG becomes worthless!

Yes but isn't there room for personal opinion Byron.
I have seen several people on here defend CPR, and
surely you should be able to do that without being
flamed. I can recall people dismissing F1RS menus
as clunky and slow, but others have found them to be
perfectly acceptable.
At the end of the day I'll make my own mind up by
playing the demo, but it's useful to get the views of
others.

--
Andrew Fielden.
UK.

Even though you seem to need to flame me, I still look forward to your posts
Byron. Read my respnose to ymenard under: About the CPR Deal...Hehe
remember...   There's nothing ridiculous. My posts tend to get twisted by
you guys in your need to bicker.

racing titles. So my

I read this newsgroup every day, and enjoy it obviously, but it will never
have any effect in determining sales of sims. Basicaly the same guys have
been here for at least the past year (like a little club), and it's size has
stayed the same. It's only relevent to it's readers which is good enough. If
it determined sales, CPR wouldn't of sold as well as it did, right?

Art can speak for himself, but I remember him spending quite a bit of time
in the CPR community, especially on-line. Also, if my judgement is so poor
concerning CPR, then quite a few top drivers in GPL will also have crappy
judgement of sim quality since they also have been heavily invloved in CPR.

I haven't said more than 2 or 3 posts on CPR in the last couple of months
leading up to this thread. You call that thriving? My involvement in this
thread only came about because people were insulting others with harsh
coments. I usually only respond with opinion when I see others, or their
work, being treated unfairly.

Hahaha. I have never received a dime from MS. Wish I had though. No one from
MS is reading anything I ever say on r.a.s. and thinking "Good job Dave,
Bill and the rest of the company wants you on our beta test teams forever!"

I see good and bad points in all the sims, why do you only notice my CPR
opinions? I've commented on F1RS, GPL, MTM2, among others, and many other
areas of sims.

Byron, I'm sure you won't comment on the key points of this post, you'll
pick something that will score you points with your buddies. Have fun.

Dave
DmndDave

David has the right to his own opinion.

What really disappointed me was theat MS/TRI promised patches to fix CPR.
CPR has potential, that why I think so many are upset. I remember when CPR
was first announced. Release date: Spring 98! And it came out December 97.
Which pretty much tells you they tried to get it out for xmas. Now look at
GPL. First release date was Spring 98, we are well into summer and still no
GPL. Games tend to get pushed back. CPR wasnt even in Alpha when it was
release is my opinion. A game being release 4 months early is unheard of!

Oh and Byron what happened in that race, my teammate Sandman got stuck in
the wall and I had to go in the pit to help him out. But I got stuck trying
to help him out. Two Stealth Racing cars out of the race due to that $%&^ing
bug. At least they managed to fix that in the first patch I think?

Arthur
s t e a l t h
r a c i n g
http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

racing titles. So my

Well, you'ld think so, wouldn't you, George?  All I know is, I use Win95 at
work (desktop & notebook), along with WinNT4.0, and UNIX workstations.  All are
32-bit OS.  Guess which one never crashes, and has never had a wayward app lock
it up?  I'll give you a hint; it doesn't come from Redmond, Wash.

Bob (a.k.a.  Hi Im B0B)

Flame War?
This is what's known as a flame war?  Oh,,,
Well, we really shouldn't let these children play with matches.

Bob

Thanks for hitting so many nails on the head and saving me a post Richard.